CAR Center Axis Relock

This is a discussion on CAR Center Axis Relock within the Defensive Carry & Tactical Training forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; Fault I see with the Center Axis Relock system is that it is stance related. You have to be standing a certain way to shoot. ...

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Thread: CAR Center Axis Relock

  1. #16
    Distinguished Member Array Bill MO's Avatar
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    Fault I see with the Center Axis Relock system is that it is stance related. You have to be standing a certain way to shoot. In a gunfight you don't always have time to get to that stance.

    While I do use some of the Center Axis Relock in my shooting I am not fixed on it. "See what you need to see to get the hits you need to get" from wherever you are. Don't be "I have to stand this way, hold the gun this way" to get the hits I want. Learn to fight from where you are and just get it done.

    Can you make the hits with the gun upside down, full homie, while laying on the ground, standing on one foot or while running away or running at all. Learn to shoot the gun as if it is part of you not something you have to control. Everything does not need to be perfect before you can get the hits, the rounds still go where to sights are pointed just learn to get them (the sights) right no matter what stance you are the gun may be in.

    Only stance lock I see one needs is visual center-line.
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    It's gotta be who you are, not a hobby. reinman45

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  3. #17
    Senior Member Array Happypuppy's Avatar
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    CAR Center Axis Relock

    I am very impressed with it from close quarters, in a car and firing in peticular. It looks like it has a lot of merit. I would be interested in adding it as a skill


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  4. #18
    New Member Array BigBearJoe's Avatar
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    I'm certainly not arguing that C.A.R is for every situation. However, the bladed stance doesn't necessarily mean you have to be standing. For example at Civiliam Arms Training Source one of the range exercises is done sitting from a chair at the 5 yard line - simulating firing from a sitting position in a vehicle. It is actually three exercises because you simulate firing out the "drivers side" or firing at the target to your left, out the "passanger side" across the passanger's seat to the right, and even directly behind you as if there is a car jacker in the rear seat (i.e. the chair is changed accordingly during each of the three exercises so that you are always shooting at the target and backstop). In the C.A.R. system your back is always flat against the back of the chair (or auto seat as simulated by the exercise).Try doing that with a weaver or isoceles stance. You can't without unbuckling your seatbelt then unnaturaally twisting your upper torso completely off the back of the seat.Another interesting and useful aspect of the C.A.R. system (and it is a system, not simply a stance as in Weaver or isoceles) is that you train with both eyes open. In Weaver you initially locate the target with both eyes, close the support side eye, then focus on the front site with the strong side eye before firing and the same with isoceles. However with the C.A.R. system both eyes are always open widening field of view and the shooter focuses on the front site with his support side eye leaving his strong side eye open also. Also, at Civilian Arms Training new students participate in moving exercises the first day whereas at Front Sight you are not moving even on the last day of the 4-Day Defensive Handgun course (which by the way is an excellent course in itself which I would not hesitate to recommend to anyone). Regarding moving while shooting, one Civilian Arms Training shooting exercise involves walking parallel along a line of targets while firing. Using the bladed system you are basically walking in a natural walk with your head turned toward the target. If you were using the classic Weaver stance for this exercise, you are basically facing your torso to the targets and side-stepping in one direction or the other with the lead foot then dragging the followup foot to catch up - a very unnatural "hop along walk"- while exposing yourself to as a larger target to the threat(s). Another moving-while- firing exercise using the C.A.R. system involves barricades which simulate moving down a hallway while alternating sides very naturally keeping yourself a very slim bladed profile regardless of which side you are firing from as compared to the weaver which always makes one a bigger target. But again, I continue to practice both techniques. Mostly because I like to shoot. I hope to continue learning other techniques too as my training progresses.

    One thing I have learned, at least for myself, is that it is a real eye opener to take multiple training from multiple qualified instructors and don't get hung up always training with the same school or even the same instructor within that school. Training with many different qualified people keeps shooting fun for me. My main purpose in posting to this thread remains asking for a copy of that Paul Castle training manual one of the other members is fortunate enough to have a cipy of. I sure would like to see that and thanks in advance if there is some way I can get a copy.

  5. #19
    Member Array Eichorn's Avatar
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    I've tried hard to see the advantage of the C.A.R system, but it just isn't happening. Rather than write a lengthy post discussing all of its weaknesses as I perceive them, I will simply say this: When it comes to training a reflexive action such as drawing a firearm to stop an attacker, less is more. Fewer choices = faster reaction time.
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  6. #20
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    Question

    Looks interesting. For these type situations I use the Center Axis Relock developed by Paul Castle 30 years ago. The weapon can be held comfortably for long periods and can be fired from the same position if needed.
    Paul Castle: 1959-2011…

    OK, so 30 years ago Paul would have been 23. My question is how could a English “Bobby” know anything about shooting handguns at that age? Were they even issued any back then?
    "...with liberty and justice for all..."
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  7. #21
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    Lightbulb

    Quote Originally Posted by JD View Post
    I think I have a severe distrust of anyone wearing urban camo.

    Would have liked to see a demo video from the draw or a FoF version using this technique.
    Not happening...the CAR guys don't believe in testing.
    "...with liberty and justice for all..."
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  8. #22
    VIP Member Array dukalmighty's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DRM View Post
    Paul Castle: 1959-2011…

    OK, so 30 years ago Paul would have been 23. My question is how could a English “Bobby” know anything about shooting handguns at that age? Were they even issued any back then?
    Only special teams of Bobbys were even trained to shoot firearms back then IIRC they were like the Anti Robbery squad,and there weren't many of them,so if he developed that system 30 years ago IMHO he would have needed to be a Firearms Instructor since the only hands on guns the Bobbies got was on the Range and never took a gun home
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  9. #23
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    I took the CAR system class from Paul in the early eighties.

    The system like any other, including yours DRM, works for some and not for others and is not the end all of shooting methods. Armed Response Teams and Personal Security Teams within the British Police have been around a long time.

    Not sure about your comment about the CAR guys don't believe in testing but whatever. If it works for you use it if not then don't pretty simple. I ordered and watched your video about your method of shooting and there was not any measurable difference in accuracy downrange. Some would say you are simply modifying an existing grip and calling it the latest and greatest to market something for yourself, but again whatever floats your boat. You want to knock something that you did not market go for it.

    I was proud to call Paul Castle my friend and I learned things from him he was a hell of a shooter and one crazy ass Brit. He taught many things to many people around the world and did so to hopefully keep them alive to fight another day. Please do keep on making your remarks about other folks methods all the while touting your own, who knows maybe someday you will be invited to instruct at one of those high speed schools like Front Sight or something.
    "A first rate man with a third rate gun is far better than the other way around". The gun is a tool, you are the craftsman that makes it work. There are those who say "if I had to do it, I could" yet they never go out and train to do it. Don't let stupid be your mindset. Harryball 2013

  10. #24
    Distinguished Member Array Bill MO's Avatar
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    Tac, front Sight may be high speed that guess I don't like high speed (JMO) Not only would I not go to Front Sight but would run from. (Again Just Me and My Opinion)
    It's gotta be who you are, not a hobby. reinman45

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  11. #25
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    Bill was not directed at you and was meant as sarcasm. I do not consider Front Sight High Speed either.
    "A first rate man with a third rate gun is far better than the other way around". The gun is a tool, you are the craftsman that makes it work. There are those who say "if I had to do it, I could" yet they never go out and train to do it. Don't let stupid be your mindset. Harryball 2013

  12. #26
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    Lightbulb

    About 10 years ago Paul Castle called me up complaining that we were trashing his system on the internet. I told him that I had never even heard of C.A.R.

    Paul Castle then asked me if he could send me his videos and training manual for T&E. I agreed, but ONLY if I could review it and write it up “Warts and All” which I did. I’m always open to new ideas, no mater how silly they may sound. I believe something useful can be gleaned from almost and method. Here is my report:

    “I have diligently studied the C.A.R. Training Manual and have reviewed the video tapes of the C.A.R. System dozens of times with my instructors. Having tested it on our range for several hours, I have made the following observations:

    The Good News:

    For a right handed shooter, the CAR stance is good for shooting out from the driver’s side window of a car in a compressed Weaver like we have all been doing (for like, forever).

    Likewise, the CAR stance is well suited for shooting around the left side of a barricade when using cover (again, just like we have all been doing forever) in a compressed Weaver.

    Now the Bad News…

    As far as retention goes, it’s a good way to shoot yourself in the elbow. It is my opinion that under stress, there is a good possibility that with this method someone will do one or more of the following:

    1. Get their teeth knocked out
    2. Shoot their elbow off
    3. Cause their gun to jam
    4. Shoot their partner
    5. Shoot a bystander
    6. Get shot like Ronald Reagan did (under the arm pit), thus bypassing the vest

    Further, I believe that this stance severely limits your field of view, your range of motion, your defensive options and more importantly, YOUR ACCURACY."


    BOTTOM LINE: We test ALL the time. Paul Sharp figures have used well over a 100K rounds of SIMS in the testing of F-F in FoF (and that doesn't count AirSoft). Anytime you guys would like to test CAR vs. FIST-FIRE let us know.

    I hold classes all the time on my range in near Williamsburg, VA and Sharp is in Illinois. We’ll be teaching in other places around the country in 2013. Feel free to come visit us. We’ll welcome you with open arms.

    Stay safe,

    D.R.
    "...with liberty and justice for all..."
    (Must be 18. Void where prohibited. Some restrictions may apply. Not available in all states). - D. Stanhope

    D.R. Middlebrooks - Pro Shooting Coach & Custom Gunsmith
    Tactical Shooting Academy & Custom Shop
    www.TacticalShooting.com

  13. #27
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    Thanks but no thanks, I don't think we would hit it off very well.
    "A first rate man with a third rate gun is far better than the other way around". The gun is a tool, you are the craftsman that makes it work. There are those who say "if I had to do it, I could" yet they never go out and train to do it. Don't let stupid be your mindset. Harryball 2013

  14. #28
    OD*
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    Quote Originally Posted by DRM View Post
    3. Cause their gun to jam
    Appears that happened to Jeff Johnsgaard, in his video around 26/28 seconds.
    "The pistol, learn it well, carry it always ..." ~ Jeff Cooper

    "Diligentia Vis Celeritas"

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  15. #29
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    OD which video?
    "A first rate man with a third rate gun is far better than the other way around". The gun is a tool, you are the craftsman that makes it work. There are those who say "if I had to do it, I could" yet they never go out and train to do it. Don't let stupid be your mindset. Harryball 2013

  16. #30
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    "The pistol, learn it well, carry it always ..." ~ Jeff Cooper

    "Diligentia Vis Celeritas"

    "There is very little new, and the forgotten is constantly being rediscovered."
    ~ Tiger McKee

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