The Lima Review of Suarez International Force on Force Training with Steve Collins

This is a discussion on The Lima Review of Suarez International Force on Force Training with Steve Collins within the Defensive Carry & Tactical Training forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; I promise that I am not masochistic when I say that spending two days getting shot at in the Suarez International Force on Force training ...

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Thread: The Lima Review of Suarez International Force on Force Training with Steve Collins

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    The Lima Review of Suarez International Force on Force Training with Steve Collins

    I promise that I am not masochistic when I say that spending two days getting shot at in the Suarez International Force on Force training was both painful but fun. The instructor of our particular class was Steve Collins who I think should consider adding a bag of Epson salts to the list of “needed” items for the class. It is at least a needed item after the class to soak your battered, cut, bruised and often bleeding welts and tenderized muscles.

    When I told my mother that I was going to a two-day class where people would shoot at me with airsoft guns, attack me, scream at me and try to hit me among other things, her reaction was, “And you PAY for this?” But I must say that it is money well spent.

    I won’t pretend I’m not proud that I was the first female to participate in Force on Force directed by Steve Collins. It’s a bit disappointing to find out that more women do not participate in Force on Force. It allows those select few females (like me) to really get a chance to “gunfight” with men (sometimes groups of men) which is more likely to be the case in real life. It was also useful to get the men used to taking shots at a woman. I’ve been told it’s pretty natural for men to avoid shooting women and children. Throughout the class I took the role of a wife, the female distraction, the frightened female, the panicked mother and even the unlikely shooter or assassin. In general, I provided another element to the training that would not have been present if the class were filled only with males. This made me feel pretty good about my gender.

    What didn’t make me feel so good was the hand-to-hand combat we did on the first day of class. Being female and naturally weaker than my male counterparts, it was very easy to find myself tossed, feigned-stabbed with dummy knives or chocked out in second. The men I fought were gentler than I would have liked (no matter how crazy that sounds) but it was very clear to me that a full-size man going toe-to-toe with me (especially armed with a knife or club) could potentially do far more damage to me than I could to him without an equalizer of some sorts (i.e. a knife or a gun). Knowing that these things cannot always be available I have determined to get more and better training in hand-to-hand combat that caters specifically to my needs as a smaller and weaker female.

    Which brings me to the outstanding and unequaled benefits of participating in Force-on-Force. You learn. Period.

    You learn what you need to work on. You learn what doesn’t work. You learn what might work. You learn what might work in one situation may not work in another. You learn to move. You learn to pay attention. You learn why you do some of the things you do, carry some of the equipment you carry or think the way you think. You learn to ignore some of the “arm-chair elitist” advice that has no basis when put to practice. And it’s experience you couldn’t get anywhere but force-on-force or in a real gunfight (which we all pray we never have to participate in.

    I couldn’t possible list all of the things I’ve learned in the last two days but I will certainly list the things that seem to stand out the most in my mind.

    The first great lesson is that ammo goes quickly. On average I think we were all shooting our “attackers” between two and four times. Very seldomly was one shot used and when you added two, three or even four “bad guys” in some scenarios you found yourself with an empty gun REAL fast. Carrying a higher capacity firearm is often taught, preached, encouraged and recommended but until you are out there, facing three guys who are rushing at you with knifes and guns you just do not personally know how fast the ammo really goes.

    Does that mean that I will NEVER AGAIN carry a j-frame, 5-shot revolver or an 8-shot .45? Not necessarily, but I will do so with the full, personal understanding that I might run out of ammo when the doo-doo hits the fan. One thing is for sure, however: I am far more committed to carrying spare magazines.

    The second lesson learned is that of movement. You would think this would be an easy lesson to learn but when you spend most of your trigger time on a static range with the perfect stance and perfect grip and perfect sight alignment and absolutely no movement, it’s almost conditioning you NOT to move when shooting. Of course most ranges do not allow you to run around like a maniac when shooting your real firearm and for good reason. This is why Force on Force is so vital to training. You are encouraged to move, trained to move, dare I say FORCED to move when you have a 200 pound man with a club rushing at you from five yards away. I have by no means mastered the art of moving, drawing and shooting but I am now aware how much more I need to work on it and how vital it is to survival in a fight. Standing still will get your killed. Moving increases your chances of survival.

    The third lesson learned is that of essentials. What I mean by that is a lot of the stuff you learn in your general pistol classes goes right out the window when you start shooting at moving, thinking, attacking human beings. No, you are not going to have a perfect shuffle run. No, you are not going to always get to a perfect two-handed grip. No, you aren’t even going to think about that awesome tactical reload you practiced for thirty-seven hours last week. What you ARE going to use is the basic essential to survival in a gunfight and for me that was a good, quick draw that gets your muzzle on target from the holster and as solid of a one-handed grip as you can get. Other things help and you MIGHT either have trained enough to the point that they are instinctive or miraculously found enough time to think, “Hey, I’m going to try this.” But believe me when I say that a lot of the so-called “fundamentals” you thought were so important when you first started shooting quickly get thrown out when you are trying to climb into a car with three bags in your hands and three men rush you as you are pinned against the vehicle. I do think the “fundamentals” should still be taught and practiced because they are a good basis upon which to build but that doesn’t mean they will always be possible.

    The fourth lesson is that hands get hit A LOT.

    The fifth lesson: have good gear. Because my cheapo airsoft gun wouldn’t fit in my holster and I forgot to bring a different holster that DID fit my gun, for the first half of the first day I borrowed a holster from another class member. My gun fell out so many times while running or moving. It ejected my magazine without my knowledge. It wasn’t secure and generally just SUCKED. Other class members experienced the same failures due to poor holster selections. Thankfully, Steve Collins had a better airsoft gun that he allowed me to borrow that fit in my actually carry holster and it completely eliminated those issues. Having that confidence that when you reach for your gun it’s going to be there and ready to fire is invaluable and if you doubt your equipment or even experience a single fail in retention or quality some serious considerations need to be put in to what you are using to hold the tools that might save your life.

    I was very grateful that Steve Collins seemed to be so open-minded about scenarios. He never accused anyone of being stupid or tried to force anyone to do something they were uncomfortable with or didn’t think would work. When I suggested that I should carry a “purse” and “diaper bag” as I would normally do, his response was, “Absolutely.” So for a couple of the scenarios I found myself toting around some bags. After one particular shoot wherein I engaged two “attackers,” afterward I was brought back to reality with Steve’s laughter as he added, “And she still has her purse.” Sure enough, I was still clutching my lunch bag that was serving as my makeshift purse for the scenarios.

    I was very glad I was able to make it to the low-light (which turned into the no-light) shoot at the end of the first day because that was invaluable for learning just how hard it is to identify targets (and hits) in little to no-light situations with live, moving targets that shot back. Yet another piece of valuable training you simply couldn’t get anywhere but in force on force.

    Steve was a very thorough instructor who engaged us in making our own observations over just telling us what to do or expect. When we all made bad decisions and paid for it with a pellet or two to our bodies he allowed the wounds to do the reprimands for themselves and would engage us in discussion on what we could have done differently (if anything) to avoid that situation.

    There were plenty of breaks for us to lick and bandage our wounds, discuss our observations and even talk about gear or just to let the stinging in our flesh to subside just a bit before we subjected ourselves to another volley of pellets.

    While I know that not every single scenario can be gone over in a two-day class I thought the range of scenarios covered was very good.

    If I had only one complaint about the scenarios it was that we didn’t get close enough to each other. Because we all knew that the people coming out at us were more than likely going to try to hurt us at some point we all tended to engage in even verbal commands at distances simply not realistic in our day-to-day lives. It would have been interesting and, I think, beneficial to have at least one sting of scenarios where the scenario STARTED toe-to-toe. Even if it was just with blue dummy guns or knives instead of the airsoft guns, starting the scenario with someone already within arms reach would have forced all of us to come to grips with the reality that people get close whether we want them to or not and sometimes we have to deal with them from one foot away. We did do hand-to-hand fighting with knives on the first day and three-yard drills on the second day but I think it would be good to practice a few perhaps robbery or “get in the car” scenarios where you are fighting someone who has already gotten inside your comfort zone and has the drop on you.

    What I also would have loved to have seen was even just a one-page syllabus or sheet discussing a few key points from the instructor and a list of the general scenarios gone over and maybe a little three or for line space to right comments underneath and a prompting from the instructor to write down thoughts, comments, opinions and whether or not this is something you need to work on. I know I would loved to have taken something like that home just to help jog my own memory as to what was gone over in the day and what stood out to me and what I feel I may need work on. I can remember now but in a very short time I’m going to wish I had a list of things to go over and review.

    Otherwise I really can’t say enough good things about this class and how much it has helped either drive home what I have already learned, enlightened areas where I need more work, taught me new things or humbled me and my opinions.

    A few small welts and battered fingers is a small price to pay for the value of training received.

    I KNOW I will be seeking out more force on force training in the future. I’m just going to wait for these wounds to heal first.

    P.S.
    It should comfort everyone to know that I make a HORRIBLY incompetent bad guy.

    P.P.S
    This is just my arm..


    I have these little welts all over my abdomen, chest, legs, back, butt, hands and head. The only things that didn't get shot seemed to be my feet. Four or my ten fingers were shot right on the knuckles. My ring finger and trigger finger still haven't regained their full range of motion yet either..lol
    Last edited by QKShooter; September 13th, 2010 at 08:16 PM. Reason: minor typo

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    Great post.
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    Outstanding post!

    Thanks for sharing your experience.
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    Thank you for going where no woman has gone before, lima. There is no substitute for training. Do you have plans to continue or build on your experiences here? Add Krav Maga to your arsenal, anything like that?
    "It may seem difficult at first, but everything is difficult at first."

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    Fantastic Review Lima - Thanks for sharing!
    "All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing."

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    Sounds like a great course, thanks for the review.
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    VIP Member Array Blackeagle's Avatar
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    Great review Lima!

    Quote Originally Posted by limatunes View Post
    The first great lesson is that ammo goes quickly. On average I think we were all shooting our “attackers” between two and four times. Very seldomly was one shot used and when you added two, three or even four “bad guys” in some scenarios you found yourself with an empty gun REAL fast. Carrying a higher capacity firearm is often taught, preached, encouraged and recommended but until you are out there, facing three guys who are rushing at you with knifes and guns you just do not personally know how fast the ammo really goes.
    Definitely. After my first S.I. force on force class, I ditched my 8 shot HK USP Compact for a Glock 21. Several of my friends who went into that class with 1911s or a single stack S&W auto did the same. Working these drills against live opponents drives home this lesson in ways that class lectures, live fire versus static targets, and endless internet discussion never can.

    Quote Originally Posted by limatunes View Post
    This is why Force on Force is so vital to training. You are encouraged to move, trained to move, dare I say FORCED to move when you have a 200 pound man with a club rushing at you from five yards away. I have by no means mastered the art of moving, drawing and shooting but I am now aware how much more I need to work on it and how vital it is to survival in a fight. Standing still will get your killed. Moving increases your chances of survival.
    Not only this, but the right kind of movement. The sort of shooting on the move that most gun schools teach just isn't how you're going to move when that 200 pound guy with a club is bearing down on you.

    Quote Originally Posted by limatunes View Post
    It would have been interesting and, I think, beneficial to have at least one sting of scenarios where the scenario STARTED toe-to-toe. Even if it was just with blue dummy guns or knives instead of the airsoft guns, starting the scenario with someone already within arms reach would have forced all of us to come to grips with the reality that people get close whether we want them to or not and sometimes we have to deal with them from one foot away.
    Suarez International offers a class called 0-5 Feet that, as it's name implies, focuses on the sorts of very close up encounters you're talking about. It's not really scenario based, but more focused on teaching the tools and techniques for dealing with close range assaults. It covers a bit of close range shooting, some anti-knife work, some ground fighting, and some disarms. I happened to take it this weekend. It's really a great class.

    Quote Originally Posted by limatunes View Post
    I KNOW I will be seeking out more force on force training in the future. I’m just going to wait for these wounds to heal first.
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    Senior Member Array Sweatnbullets's Avatar
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    You learn what you need to work on. You learn what doesn’t work. You learn what might word. You learn what might work in one situation may not work in another. You learn to move. You learn to pay attention. You learn why you do some of the things you do, carry some of the equipment you carry or think the way you think. You learn to ignore some of the “arm-chair elitist” advice that has no basis when put to practice. And it’s experience you couldn’t get anywhere but force-on-force or in a real gunfight (which we all pray we never have to participate in.
    This is what I call the FOF epiphany. Everyone that actually trains for self defense needs to experience this epiphany at a personal level, through first hand experience.

    Talk is cheap! Opinions mean nothing until they have been proven against thinking and resisting adversaries.

    If you are not training with the context of the fight at the very forefront......you are just target shooting.

    Great review! Thanks for taking the time! I know that Steve appreciates it, as do all of the Suarez International Instructors.

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    Nice post. Sounds like this FOF training was well worth the expense of time and effort.

    As for your mother's query about the worth of such things, I'm sure you'll think of a way to show her the value you've gained. I'm sure she'll feel much better about knowing you're becoming a stronger, harder, less-predictable non-target for the predators out there.


    Quote Originally Posted by limatunes
    You learn what you need to work on. You learn what doesn’t work. You learn what might word. You learn what might work in one situation may not work in another. You learn to move. You learn to pay attention ...
    Probably the most important lesson of all. Situations are fluid. You've got to continually change, applying what works and moving on when something doesn't. It's far better to learn this on a playing field with "test" combatants than in the heat of being attacked when things are wrong from bad to worse.


    Quote Originally Posted by limatunes
    Being female and naturally weaker than my male counterparts ...
    One of the things I've learned is that "strength" comes in different sizes. Not everyone who is large is strong; and, not everyone who is strong in one situation is strong in even most situations. Reality is often a bit different. FOF can help find the truth of that, as it can depend MUCH more based on focus and drive, simply (a) being more dedicated to the task at hand and (b) wanting it more than the other person.

    Particularly being the one needing to find deeper wells of those two things, I hope you found this simple truth during your course.


    Quote Originally Posted by limatunes
    ... in some scenarios you found yourself with an empty gun REAL fast. Carrying a higher capacity firearm is often taught, preached, encouraged and recommended but until you are out there, facing three guys who are rushing at you with knifes and guns you just do not personally know how fast the ammo really goes.

    One thing is for sure, however: I am far more committed to carrying spare magazines.
    Yup. 'Nuff said. Can't use what you don't have.


    Quote Originally Posted by limatunes
    Having that confidence that when you reach for your gun it’s going to be there and ready to fire is invaluable and if you doubt your equipment or even experience a single fail in retention or quality some serious considerations need to be put in to what you are using to hold the tools that might save your life.
    This is HUGE. It may sting to buy a customized holster, or one that's tightly boned to the shape of your pistol, or one made by someone who has made thousands and built a lifetime reputation on high-quality, but the pay-back often is that you get what you pay for. That occurs when selecting the firearm/knife, holster, ensuring they work with YOU and your carry method.

    As you say, it's invaluable to have the weapon there when you need it, functioning as intended. It can be deadly when it's not ... for whatever reason (flawed holster, slipped out of position, bumped the magazine release catch too hard and lost the magazine, etc).


    Quote Originally Posted by limatunes
    If I had only one complaint about the scenarios it was that we didn’t get close enough to each other. Because we all knew that the people coming out at us were more than likely going to try to hurt us at some point we all tended to engage in even verbal commands at distances simply not realistic in our day-to-day lives. It would have been interesting and, I think, beneficial to have at least one sting of scenarios where the scenario STARTED toe-to-toe.
    That's an important point. Some situations in life do in fact start with someone right there, in your face, not even a full arm's length away. Abrupt and explosive H2H techniques are required in some such situations, none of which are going to be involving voice commands as if that alone will get an attacker to reconsider.
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    This was a great class in a great location! We had a fantastic host, and I couldn't ask for a better group of students. The first day was a huge eye opener for everyone, and I think set the tone for the rest of the class.

    Hopefully everyone will train the skills they learned here when they get home. Finding willing training partners who don't mind getting shot with Airsoft can be a challenge, but even training on your own in the backyard will help maintain and improve what you've learned.

    If more people would come to Force on Force, and spend less time in front of the mirror quick drawing against themselves, they'd be a lot better off!

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    Excellent post! Thank you!

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    Fantastic review Lima...

    It makes me realize that I need FoF training
    “You can sway a thousand men by appealing to their prejudices quicker than you can convince one man by logic.”

    ― Robert A. Heinlein,

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    Quote Originally Posted by shockwave View Post
    Thank you for going where no woman has gone before, lima. There is no substitute for training. Do you have plans to continue or build on your experiences here? Add Krav Maga to your arsenal, anything like that?
    I really do want to participate in training of this sort. I have told my husband for years that I want to take some kind of regular fighting class whether it is some kind of MMA or whatever. I know I need that kind of training and we want to start our son in that kind of training as well. I will probably try to find a class that we can go to together. Nothing says mother-son bonding time like learning how to kick butt together.

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    Quote Originally Posted by SteveCollins View Post
    This was a great class in a great location! We had a fantastic host, and I couldn't ask for a better group of students. The first day was a huge eye opener for everyone, and I think set the tone for the rest of the class.

    Hopefully everyone will train the skills they learned here when they get home. Finding willing training partners who don't mind getting shot with Airsoft can be a challenge, but even training on your own in the backyard will help maintain and improve what you've learned.

    If more people would come to Force on Force, and spend less time in front of the mirror quick drawing against themselves, they'd be a lot better off!
    Good to see you here! I can't wait to see the pictures from the class. I told my husband about the dance-move picture you got of me and he can't wait to see it. I got a little bit of video of a couple of the scenarios. It was a great time.

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    You started out as a poor criminal but by the end of the weekend I thought you were getting pretty good at strong arm robbery.

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