Drawing Against The Drop (DATD)

This is a discussion on Drawing Against The Drop (DATD) within the Defensive Carry & Tactical Training forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; Guantes, Nice explanation, but let me check to see that I understand correctly, since I was trying to figure out exactly what you are doing ...

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Thread: Drawing Against The Drop (DATD)

  1. #16
    Senior Member Array RicT's Avatar
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    Guantes,

    Nice explanation, but let me check to see that I understand correctly, since I was trying to figure out exactly what you are doing with your off hand (Blackoak, thanks for the video to make it a little clearer).

    Coordinated with the verbal & the body blading, your off hand (left hand for me) is moving from left to right and down, in a kind of sweeping motion. In the clip, Tom does not grab the attacker's arm, and it's probably very difficult to do in real life too (in my judo training from younger days, it was very difficult to catch an arm, much easier to sweep the arm out of the way).

    So now you've pushed/swept the attacker's gun hand past your body and down. If you do some stop-action in the video, the attacker "goes with" the motion (which seems probable in real life), but very quickly that allows him to sweep the lower part of your body with his gun. Since you don't actually have control of his hand, couldn't he just fire into your legs (or worse!) at that point? What if his "going with" your motion swings the gun towards your S-O standing off your left side, which you don't want?

    And I'm trying to picture the indexing of your gun on your parry arm...but I'm lost there.

    Not trying to be negative (especially since you used it successfully in a real situation!), but just looking for a clearer "word picture" of that part of the sequence.

    rict

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  3. #17
    VIP Member Array Guantes's Avatar
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    RicT,

    The parry is not really a sweeping motion in the sense of being circular. It is a directional parry down and to your right at about a forty-five degree angle. A grab would be nice, but as you say probably not doable. As long as your parry hand is in the wrist area of the aggressor to prevent a flip back shot at you, a grab would just be icing on the cake.

    The fact that the parry is not circular, the speed of action and the blading of your body should eliminate or reduce and any sweeping of your body by the aggresor.

    One reason for not using a circular parry is to prevent the sweeping of your SO on your left.

    If there is anything still unclear, I will be happy to attempt to clarify.

    Here is a pic of the ending position, which should help with understanding of the positions involved.
    Attached Images

  4. #18
    Senior Member Array 1911PKR's Avatar
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    Makes a little more sense with the picture, thanks!....
    Seems to be simultaneous movements, best make sure that muzzle is clear while indexing and pullin' the trigger.
    "Success is how high you bounce when you hit bottom" Gen. George Patton

  5. #19
    VIP Member Array Guantes's Avatar
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    Your Welcome.
    Very true. That is why indexing prior to firing is emphasized in the narrative. I have done it live fire, firing prior to indexing, but your timing must be impeccable or the consequences are severe. Based on video replay observation, I have ceased that practice and advise against it.

  6. #20
    Senior Member Array 1911PKR's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Guantes View Post
    your timing must be impeccable or the consequences are severe. Based on video replay observation,.
    Your the teacher, I'm just the student. After further observation of your picture, look at how far the gun is away from your holster. Look at how high it is and how far out in front of your body it is. The gun was pulled and moved up 18" to chest level AND out 24" toward the attacker. IMO... and the limited training and real world experience with gunfights I have, if you're DATD, the weapon should be rocked from the holster and fired from the hip as soon as the weapon clears leather and is horizontal. That said, I've never had to DATD. No disrespect intended and thanks for the idea, just looks risky and time consuming.
    "Success is how high you bounce when you hit bottom" Gen. George Patton

  7. #21
    Senior Member Array RicT's Avatar
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    Thanks, the picture does clarify it.

    "I have done it live fire, firing prior to indexing, but your timing must be impeccable or the consequences are severe."
    I'd say that's a bit of an understatement!

  8. #22
    VIP Member Array Guantes's Avatar
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    1911PKR,

    Your comments are welcome, no offense taken.

    As to the distance from the holster and out in front. One reason the gun appears far from the holster is the blading of the body during the process. If the body were not bladed, the gun would be see to be only a few inches from the holster.

    There may be a little excess extension out in front, possibly trying to capture a static position picture of a moving action with no one to work against. In addition, in reality, your arm is against and parallel to the aggressor's arm with forward pressure of arm and body, which pretty much eliminates over extension

    IF the gun were "fired from the hip", presuming you mean 1/4 hip as opposed to 1/2 hip, what about the parry, where would you off hand be when you fired.

    As to rocking the gun and shooting over the top of the holster. Unless you are wearing a rear canted holster that is pretty much out. Wearing a high rise front rake concealment type holster type and empolying EU/ED, as the elbow comes down and the muzzle is rotated up the position and the gun will be in front of the holster in a half hip position.

    I would request that you try it a few times with an opponent and see what you think.

    Anything I reveal is for the use of those who find value in it. If someone does not find value in it, I don't expect them to embrace it.

  9. #23
    VIP Member Array zacii's Avatar
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    excellent stuff. I would like to try it with an opponent; using airsoft guns, perhaps
    Trust in God and keep your powder dry

    "A heavily armed citizenry is not about overthrowing the government; it is about preventing the government from overthrowing liberty. A people stripped of their right of self defense is defenseless against their own government." -source

  10. #24
    VIP Member Array shockwave's Avatar
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    This is similar to a drill I've practiced with my shooting friends. At extreme close range you reach out with the weak hand and bat at the target, as if slapping the gun away from you to the right. Simultaneously, you start moving to the left, drawing and firing on the move. One of those "get off the X" drills.

    In H2H class, we occasionally train for defense against gunman at the same distance, but grab the gun with the strong hand, using the weak one to help bend the attacker's arm backward for takedown and disarm. As it happens, the finger in the trigger guard is trapped and helps with the maneuver. Depending on the situation, you might want to draw against the drop or control the weapon.

    An important concept is that a drawn gun, like a knife, is a lethal weapon and if the person wanted to injure or kill you with it, they'd just walk up and do it. Since they aren't actively injuring you, their immediate aim is compliance and they expect you to submit to demands. My experience in playing the attacker suggests that the defender has at least a full second or more to work with, because as the attacker, you have to process the fact that the "victim" is going off script.

    At H2H distances and speeds, a second is a lot of time. Per the OP's remarks and mine above, practice is essential. I've found that being smooth and deliberate works well - you don't have to be blindingly fast, but you do have to continue and follow-through once you start.
    "It may seem difficult at first, but everything is difficult at first."

  11. #25
    VIP Member Array Guantes's Avatar
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    Excellent observations.

    There are a couple videos on TFF depicting both the batting and the disarm/takedown.

  12. #26
    VIP Member Array mprp's Avatar
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    I think I will go with this, rather than what "they" say. I've heard you should just comply and give them what they want and you won't get hurt. Definately something good to practice for the up close and personal. Thanks for the info Guantes, good stuff!
    Vietnam Vets, WELCOME HOME

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  13. #27
    VIP Member Array Guantes's Avatar
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    Thank you MPRP.
    You will note that in the narrative, I state that the use of DATD is for situations where you are of the belief that your life is in jeopardy and action is required. If lessor solutions are available and seem appropriate to anyone, by all means use them.

    I like you, place little confidence in what, "they" say.
    Personal experience has left me with very little confidence in the benevolence of criminals, regardless of statistics.

  14. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by shockwave View Post
    This is similar to a drill I've practiced with my shooting friends. At extreme close range you reach out with the weak hand and bat at the target, as if slapping the gun away from you to the right. Simultaneously, you start moving to the left, drawing and firing on the move. One of those "get off the X" drills.

    In H2H class, we occasionally train for defense against gunman at the same distance, but grab the gun with the strong hand, using the weak one to help bend the attacker's arm backward for takedown and disarm. As it happens, the finger in the trigger guard is trapped and helps with the maneuver. Depending on the situation, you might want to draw against the drop or control the weapon.

    An important concept is that a drawn gun, like a knife, is a lethal weapon and if the person wanted to injure or kill you with it, they'd just walk up and do it. Since they aren't actively injuring you, their immediate aim is compliance and they expect you to submit to demands. My experience in playing the attacker suggests that the defender has at least a full second or more to work with, because as the attacker, you have to process the fact that the "victim" is going off script.

    At H2H distances and speeds, a second is a lot of time. Per the OP's remarks and mine above, practice is essential. I've found that being smooth and deliberate works well - you don't have to be blindingly fast, but you do have to continue and follow-through once you start.
    Great post.... and it puts you in an "active mindset" instead of a "reactive mindset". Exactly how you achieve that in a DATD situation is still up for discussion. The growing trend seems to be, even if you give them your wallet, they'll still shoot ya. I'd create the distraction, blade my body, move, and try shootin' from the hip soon as the gun clears leather (and try not to shoot myself in the hand).
    "Success is how high you bounce when you hit bottom" Gen. George Patton

  15. #29
    VIP Member Array oakchas's Avatar
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    The picture makes the desired end result crystal clear... Getting there in one fluid motion will take some practice... slow is smooth, smooth (becomes) is fast. Another tool for the box.

    Thanks Gloves....
    Rats!
    It could be worse!
    I suppose

  16. #30
    VIP Member Array Guantes's Avatar
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    My pleasure.

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