Drawing Against The Drop (DATD) - Page 5

Drawing Against The Drop (DATD)

This is a discussion on Drawing Against The Drop (DATD) within the Defensive Carry & Tactical Training forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; Very nice G, I worry there will be some trainers out there now, who haven't been trained in this skill, who will bastardize it all ...

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Thread: Drawing Against The Drop (DATD)

  1. #61
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    Very nice G,

    I worry there will be some trainers out there now, who haven't been trained in this skill, who will bastardize it all to hell and make it less effecitve than it is when properly used.

    I consider myself fortunate that I'm one of just a few trainers in the US who are allowed to train others in the DATD through yourself.

    Hope all is well in your world sir.
    The mind is the limiting factor

    Quick Kill Rifle and Pistol Instructor


  2. #62
    VIP Member Array Guantes's Avatar
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    That is possible, but it will not be DATD as its origins are well known as are those who are recognized to train it.

    Everything is fine, getting ready for winter. Hope all is well with you.
    "I do what I do." Cpl 'coach' Bowden, "Southern Comfort".

  3. #63
    Member Array JohnN's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Black Oak View Post
    I think that you guys are over thinking a simple problem.

    Get your gun out fast and shoot the guy a couple of times in the chest.

    If that does not work, then shoot him a couple of times in the head. Never mind worrying about blading, indexing or any other of the trainer buzz words. They sell product. They do not win gun fights.

    Tom does it just right here. Fast and violent.

    Although out of character for a hired killer. If a real hired killer saw his brief case walking away, he would have shot both of the bad guys in the back, and not bothered to trap them into a gunfight.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jmKR6evZRQQ
    Your reply makes me think you have never done any force on force training.
    "America is not at war. The Marine Corps is at war; America is at the mall."

  4. #64
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    Quote Originally Posted by JohnN View Post
    Your reply makes me think you have never done any force on force training.
    and watch too many movies....every time i watch that clip i see the gun pointed at cruise at a time when it probably would have been fired in a real situation...draw against the drop is a possibility and i think guantes explained it very well...but it includes a very real possibility yo will take incoming also...

    i read a thread in this forum once where a guy stated he could draw in less than a second from concealment and the bad guys reaction time would be a second and a half so he would have time to hit him in the body and head before the bad guy could get a shot off...for anyone who thinks the reaction time with a drawn gun is a second and a half you need to buy some airsofts, get together with some friends and try this stuff out...wear heavy clothes....

  5. #65
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    BnB,

    If you remind me, I'll show you the DATD. I'm one of the few who are fortunate enough to have been trained by Guantes and being given permission to train others in that skill set.

    See you in a couple of weeks.
    The mind is the limiting factor

    Quick Kill Rifle and Pistol Instructor

  6. #66
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    Good info.

  7. #67
    3D
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    Question One More DATD Question

    For this question assume the following:

    [1] BG with pistol in his right hand within arms reach;

    [2] I have successfully executed the simultaneous movements of blading my body off his line of fire, parrying his gun & hand and deflecting them downward, drawn my pistol and moved it forward to the 'index' position above the inside of my left elbow.

    When I got to this point I realized I can easily extend the muzzle of my pistol just a few inches more and actually make contact with BG's torso as I fire.
    The qustion is: is there an advantage / disadvantage to contact shooting him?
    (or conversely; is there an advantage / disadvantage to not contact shooting him?)
    Last edited by 3D; December 12th, 2010 at 12:42 PM. Reason: Spelling
    "It is easier to resist at the beginning than at the end"____Leonardo da Vinci 1452-1519

  8. #68
    VIP Member Array Guantes's Avatar
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    Part of the reasoning of the indexing is to prevent contact shooting. With semi-autos being so prevelant, there is too great a risk of pushing the slide out of battery and causing a FTF. Keep the index and zipper. Easily done by rotating the bottom of the frame vertically on the elbow index.
    "I do what I do." Cpl 'coach' Bowden, "Southern Comfort".

  9. #69
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    Quote Originally Posted by 3D View Post
    For this question assume the following:

    [1] BG with pistol in his right hand within arms reach;

    [2] I have successfully executed the simultaneous movements of blading my body off his line of fire, parrying his gun & hand and deflecting them downward, drawn my pistol and moved it forward to the 'index' position above the inside of my left elbow.

    When I got to this point I realized I can easily extend the muzzle of my pistol just a few inches more and actually make contact with BG's torso as I fire.
    The qustion is: is there an advantage / disadvantage to contact shooting him?
    (or conversely; is there an advantage / disadvantage to not contact shooting him?)
    My answer is a guess only. Making contact at least assures the shot will hit what the muzzle is touching, provided gun isn't pushed out of battery as Quantes points out.

    I'll speak heresy. Perhaps if you can do item 2 above, the better move would be to continue with a disarm attempt. As tempting as it is for the defender's right hand to be used to pull his own gun, that right hand can maybe be put to better purpose in completing the disarm or inflicting near instantaneous and incapacitating damage to the throat, nose, eyes.

    The big danger in BOTH styles of attempted defense comes from failure to blade and draw or blade -and -disarm, or blade and strike. It comes from the high risk you'll not be fast enough and that if you miss you'll be shot dead on the spot.

    What 3D suggests makes sense if you are starting from an OC'd gun on the right hip. If you have to dig it out of your pocket, and fool around recovering it from a smart carry style, or from a cross draw IWB, the time needed might be put to better use.

  10. #70
    VIP Member Array Guantes's Avatar
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    Hopyard,
    That is one of the reasons that I state in DATD that if your carry style is not condusive to a speedy draw, you should consider other alternatives, either in actions or carry style.
    "I do what I do." Cpl 'coach' Bowden, "Southern Comfort".

  11. #71
    3D
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    Thank you G. I do EDC semi-auto (.45acp) and would not flirt with FTF / slide out of battery. Zipper it is!

    HY I agree on many points of your post. . . It is not heresy IMO. This exact movement is used in Aikido (called Irimi Nage) against an incoming punch or grab. It is also used in Wing Chun (called Pak Sau).
    I most agree with you when you say: "The big danger in BOTH styles of attempted defense comes from failure to blade and draw or blade -and -disarm, or blade and strike. It comes from the high risk you'll not be fast enough and that if you miss you'll be shot dead on the spot. see edit

    EDIT: . . . unless you blade rotating your own torso like a tank turrett out of the line of fire as you parry or in the event you 'miss' the parry.
    Hoganbeg likes this.
    "It is easier to resist at the beginning than at the end"____Leonardo da Vinci 1452-1519

  12. #72
    VIP Member Array Guantes's Avatar
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    Several points.
    This is an inherently dangerous endeavor, that is why I recommend it only for times that you feel that your life is in jeopardy.
    The timing is critical, that is why the parry, the blading and the draw must be simultaneous. This and the ability to move swiftly without telegraphing is why extensive practice is required if you wish pull this off successfully.
    "I do what I do." Cpl 'coach' Bowden, "Southern Comfort".

  13. #73
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    Quote Originally Posted by Guantes View Post
    Several points.
    This is an inherently dangerous endeavor, that is why I recommend it only for times that you feel that your life is in jeopardy.
    The timing is critical, that is why the parry, the blading and the draw must be simultaneous. This and the ability to move swiftly without telegraphing is why extensive practice is required if you wish pull this off successfully.
    Yes sir.
    Totally agree.
    Even with much practice would not employ unless I was morally certain my life was about to be taken in next instant.
    "It is easier to resist at the beginning than at the end"____Leonardo da Vinci 1452-1519

  14. #74
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    3D wrote: "you'll be shot dead on the spot. see edit

    EDIT: . . . unless you blade rotating your own torso like a tank turrett out of the line of fire"

    and 3D wrote: "he ability to move swiftly without telegraphing is why extensive practice is required"

    Yes to both. BG is yelling "GIVE ME YOUR XXXXN WALLET" He will expect your hands to move at that instant, and that it the only moderately safe point at which any motion won't get you instantly shot.

    3D wrote: "This exact movement is used in Aikido (called Irimi Nage) against an incoming punch or grab. It is also used in Wing Chun (called Pak Sau)." I don't know what it is called in Krav, but the exact movement is practiced there also-- it can even be found on youtube without much difficulty. But, the J hook step and turret like movement if not executed well will surely get your nose blown away--minimum.

    G wrote: "I state in DATD that if your carry style is not condusive to a speedy draw, you should consider other alternatives, either in actions or carry style."

    I've wrestled with this issue in my mind quite a bit. My carry style is not conducive to a speedy draw. For me to accomplish that I think I'd have to keep it in my right rear pocket instead of my right front pocket, or IWB-appendix, neither of which are attractive to me. That is one reason that even at my age I try to hone H2H skills. My philosophy is to try to buy time and space.

    Just sitting here and imagining what one might try, its pretty certain that DATD needs plenty of practice through visualization and practice at a gym or FOF training facility.

  15. #75
    VIP Member Array Guantes's Avatar
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    I would not care to attempt any maneuver in which my life hung in the balance, without extensive practice.
    "I do what I do." Cpl 'coach' Bowden, "Southern Comfort".

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