Drawing Against The Drop (DATD)

This is a discussion on Drawing Against The Drop (DATD) within the Defensive Carry & Tactical Training forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; Originally Posted by Hopyard Just sitting here and imagining what one might try, its pretty certain that DATD needs plenty of practice through visualization and ...

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Thread: Drawing Against The Drop (DATD)

  1. #76
    3D
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hopyard View Post
    Just sitting here and imagining what one might try, its pretty certain that DATD needs plenty of practice through visualization and practice at a gym or FOF training facility.
    In addition I will practice with a live partner holding airsoft or paintball gun to let me know when I fail to get it right. (I bet it will be 50/50. . . not great odds.)


    [Note: About 6 months ago I changed my carry position from A-IWB to ~3:00 o'clock OWB w/ Kydex holster. Decided to trade-off 'better' concealment for better grip and faster / easier access on the draw. . . for me.]
    scgunlover1 likes this.
    "It is easier to resist at the beginning than at the end"____Leonardo da Vinci 1452-1519

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    Quote Originally Posted by 3D View Post
    In addition I will practice with a live partner holding airsoft or paintball gun to let me know when I fail to get it right. (I bet it will be 50/50. . . not great odds.)
    I've been doing this but with a "dead" gun. Maybe should change to a water pistol for some real feedback.

    I tend to work on the disarm instead of DATD. One time without telling my partner in advance what I was going to do, instead of striking him with my right hand I began to reach for my right rear pocket where I carry a flashlight. I wanted to see if I could pull it out and use it for impact while forcing his "gun" back into his belly with my left hand. My partner thought I was reaching for my gun and turned white as a ghost.

    Yes, it needs practice and practice and practice, whether it is DATD or disarm. And don't forget that you need a plan for dealing with the drawn gun pointed at you from different angles. It won't always be straight on toward your chest or head. It can come from either side, be pointed to your chest from behind, or pointed to your head from behind. Each one requires a slightly different H2H approach and would also need a different DATD approach.

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    I played with this at the gym this morning and then came home and re-read Guantes first post.

    "The following three elements, the parry, the blading and the draw must begin simultaneously, during the verbalization.
    If the blading follows the parry it might be too late
    If the draw follows the parry and the blading , it may be too late
    They must all occur or at least begin simultaneously"

    Item 2 is really critical but also really hard to avoid the pitfall. I tried various approaches, with and without indexing on the elbow, and from my rear pocket v IWB appendix.

    In addition to the difficulty of pulling off number 2--simultaneous movement, I noticed that there were two counters the BG could take. If he rotates to his right his left hand can parry the arm you are trying to index on and if he injects enough force get you into a spin that would bring your gun away from him. If instead of indexing you try to come from underneath the arm which you used to parry, and shoot upward from belly toward neck, you might get one off but you still run the risk that the BG will just use his left hand to hit your right wrist; which if he is big enough and fast enough or just injects enough force could disarm or could certainly cause you to rotate enough that the muzzle is no longer pointed at the BG.


    Now, I played with this stuff against my MA instructor and his reactions probably aren't typical of the "typical" BG, who I think will be inclined to keep rotating to his left with the initial parry in an attempt to start running away at 180.

    I do a lot of H2H, 3 hours a week, but this is the first time I tried to introduce simulating a response with a handgun. All I can say is, interesting!!!!!!! Good luck to us all if we ever face that.

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    VIP Member Array Guantes's Avatar
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    A few points.

    By item two, do you mean this?
    If the draw follows the parry and the blading , it may be too late
    If so please explain the pitfall.

    The parry being applied with sufficient force is going to make it difficult for him to turn counter to it and it often turns his body some degree to his left, even against larger and stronger opponents. Should he manage to parry your left arm (the arm you are indexing on), merely retract your gun arm and fire from a more retentive position.

    If he strikes you right wrist, I believe that the support provided by the index arm will aid in preventing loss of control of your weapon.

    I will agree that in the end it is not infallible. It is the old cowboy and the horse. If he is faster, stronger, better, etc, whatever you do is in jeopardy.
    "I do what I do." Cpl 'coach' Bowden, "Southern Comfort".

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    Quote Originally Posted by Guantes View Post
    A few points.

    By item two, do you mean this?
    If the draw follows the parry and the blading , it may be too late
    If so please explain the pitfall.

    The parry being applied with sufficient force is going to make it difficult for him to turn counter to it and it often turns his body some degree to his left, even against larger and stronger opponents. Should he manage to parry your left arm (the arm you are indexing on), merely retract your gun arm and fire from a more retentive position.

    If he strikes you right wrist, I believe that the support provided by the index arm will aid in preventing loss of control of your weapon.

    I will agree that in the end it is not infallible. It is the old cowboy and the horse. If he is faster, stronger, better, etc, whatever you do is in jeopardy.
    Actually I really meant this, "the blading and the draw must begin simultaneously," and if you don't draw with the parry-blade you end up behind the curve. Basically, the same thing you wrote.

    I agree that if you inject force into the initial parry you'll possibly send the BG turning in the other direction and he won't be able to spin back before you index or before you fire your first shot from under the arm used to parry. What will actually really happen depends on the BG. I was playing with my MA instructor. He could also have continued to spin to his left and put an elbow right into my face.

    Yeah, "It is the old cowboy and the horse."

    Don't misunderstand. I'm not putting this approach you posted down. It clearly has merit and if you can pull it off is probably better than going hands on--especially if you get at least one shot into the BG right out the gate. I'm just saying that when playing with it at the gym it turned out to not be all that easy. I was stunned when my MA instructor just thwacked my left arm backwards from the knuckles so suddenly my gun, which was sitting in the crook of the elbow, was completely off target with no way to "zipper" anything but the air.

    Now, we didn't use airsoft or water pistols, or paint guns, so we just went through the motions. It is not quite possible to know if the first shot would get there before the BGs counter without some sort of marker. I need to try it that that way, with a water pistol, some time.

    Anyway, thanks for a thought provoking thread. Its got me thinking now about other DATD situations such as gun to temple, back of head, back. I'd practiced empty handed defenses but never combined the practice with simulation of drawing against the gun.

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    VIP Member Array Guantes's Avatar
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    No offense taken and if the thread proves useful, so much the better.
    In regard to spinning to the left and hitting you with an elbow in the face. If you read carefully, part of the technique is to slightly duck the head and keep the left shoulder up when doing the parry. This would sigificantly impair the results of any elbow thrown to your face by his left elbow in a left turning movement. It also gives some protection against an attempted head butt.
    "I do what I do." Cpl 'coach' Bowden, "Southern Comfort".

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    VIP Member Array Guantes's Avatar
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    Maybe this will give you a better idea of the finishing position. I did the camera work myself so it is not perfect, but it is reasonably close.
    Attached Images
    "I do what I do." Cpl 'coach' Bowden, "Southern Comfort".

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    Quote Originally Posted by Guantes View Post
    Maybe this will give you a better idea of the finishing position. I did the camera work myself so it is not perfect, but it is reasonably close.
    Yes, that's how I tried it. I probably brought my left arm up a little, but basically what you are showing is what I tried. Without water pistols or airsoft or paint, it is really hard to tell how the split second action involved actually plays out.

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    I agree that without some positive method,it is nearly impossible to tell. Basically he has less than a second to realize that something is happening, decide on an action against it and implement that action, befor being struck by the first round.
    "I do what I do." Cpl 'coach' Bowden, "Southern Comfort".

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    It's one thing to talk about it, another to practice, and still yet something different when you think you are about to die. Indexing the gun on your left arm, if you practice it a bit, will keep you from shooting through your left arm when the SHTF. When you think you the person in front of you is going to kill you, you will react, or you won't. You will not be thinking through the steps of what you are doing however. I got lucky, although they were holding me, they were going to use a knife to kill me, not a gun. They never expected one man to explode against three. I really did think it was over, the only decision I remember making was that i wasn't going to die without a fight. Like I said, I got lucky, but I do not fall into the "do what they say" crowd.
    There's something happening here
    What it is ain't exactly clear
    There's a man with a gun over there
    Telling me I got to beware

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    Really good stuff! Everyone that I have shown it to like it a lot and nail it down pretty quickly.

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    I posted a quick video of one of the ways I deal with a gun to my face. Remember action is faster than reaction. I can take this same technique, draw my weapon and shoot the suspect if I choose to.



    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VpfI3_EGu0Q
    "You fight the way you Train"

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    Thanks, Roger.
    "I do what I do." Cpl 'coach' Bowden, "Southern Comfort".

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    Guantes,

    Thanks for the training. One question though. To avoid covering your off arm and shooting yourself, after the parry do you move the off arm up from the bottom to the shooting arm?
    Train like your life depends on it, because it does.

    NRA Life Member

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    Tomtsr,
    It is nearly impossible to avoid sweeping your off arm at some point. I have found that with the off arm ending at a forty-five degree down angle after the parry, with the low end being on your stong side, it is virtually impossible to squeeze the trigger befor the gun rises above forty-five degrees forward. That's with my Berettas, it may be possible to get a shot off earlier with a Glock or similar. That is why I suggest getting the gun indexed on the parry arm/elbow befor attempting to fire. The timing required is precise, that is why significant practice is required, starting slow.
    "I do what I do." Cpl 'coach' Bowden, "Southern Comfort".

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