Drawing Against The Drop (DATD)

Drawing Against The Drop (DATD)

This is a discussion on Drawing Against The Drop (DATD) within the Defensive Carry & Tactical Training forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; Drawing Against The Drop (DATD) The subject of DATD has come up in several threads, so I thought I would give it its own thread ...

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    VIP Member Array Guantes's Avatar
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    Drawing Against The Drop (DATD)

    Drawing Against The Drop (DATD)

    The subject of DATD has come up in several threads, so I thought I would give it its own thread and post it in its entirety to eliminate searching for where its contents had been posted.

    DATD, which I developed a long time ago for my own use is presented below, for your persual. The concepts have been tested in the real world with success. I have personally taught it to a limited number of individuals

    This is a method of drawing and firing against an aggressor who is threatening you with a firearm that is pointed at you , in the 0-3' range and you decide the problem cannot be resolved by any other means. Drawing Against The Drop is not suited to those new to the realm of self defense or firearms, but with an understanding of the principles and practice it can be brought into one's arsenal. It is a high level, high risk manouver for situations where a lethal outcome is likely and the only question is who will prevail. It is based on suprise, speed and angles. This manouver is not meant to replace combatives or disarms but to supplement them.

    Many would say that in a close range situation such as we are talking about that combatives or disarms are the answer, not going for your gun. In some cases either of those might be the best option, in others I do not believe it would be. As we age we begin to lose the attributes of self defense. Endurance is probably the first to suffer, followed by strength. It has been my experience that speed, which is essential to Drawing Against The Drop, can be maintained longer and easier than the other two. Now let me give you some examples, where I think Drawing Against The Drop would be your best option.

    Facing an opponent of say , six foot or larger, around 200 to 240 lbs who is 20 to 30 years old, when you are a male five foot eight, 160 lbs soaking wet and 50+, 60+, etc, in age, or a 5'2" 110 pound female, unless you have a lifetime of martial training and experience, you have a big problem. This problem is only magnified if you have any physical limitation or injury or your opponent recently got out of prison, where he was pumping iron and training for two or three years. I do not believe combatives or disarms would be your best option.

    If you are facing an armed aggressor who has one or two unarmed accomplices (not that uncommon), combatives can be a big problem. An soon as you go to a disarm or combatives with the armed aggressor, you can bet the other two will be on you and trying to disable you and help the partner maintain control of his weapon. The rapid elimination of the armed aggressor in an eruption of gunfire may not solve all your problems, although it just may. At the very least, it has eliminated what appeared to be the greatest threat, while leaving you with some capability to deal with the other two, if they stick around. Here again I don't think combatives or disarms would be your best choice.

    These are the types of situations where I think DATD outshines other options.

    This is not "THE" method for drawing against a gun weilding aggressor, it is "A" method. I can tell you from experience that the principles of this method, if executed properly, do work. It uses simple, easy to learn techniques.
    I have not seen this exact method or system described by anyone else so I don't know if anyone else has developed and promotes or teaches the exact same thing. I developed this method for my own use in these types of situations.

    Drawing Against The Drop involves five specific and unique elements

    1. There is the decision that you will execute a draw against the drop
    The actual decision making process I'll leave up to you

    2. There is a verbalization to act as a distraction to the aggressor and/or a que to make your move

    3. There is a parry to get the aggressors weapon off line

    4. There is a blading of your body to help get it off line from the aggressor's gun in case your parry is not completely
    successful

    5. There is the quick and efficient access of your weapon and discharge of rounds
    Anything that interferes with this works against you, be it clothing, holster, type of draw, weapon platform or
    anything else

    In detail, they are as follows:

    The decision process, as I said, I will leave to your own means

    Once you have made the decision you need a distraction and a que.
    I use a pleading statement like, "Please don't kill me". One word in that sentence is my que. When I hit that word I go.
    There are several reasons for this.
    One, it gives me a specific go signal for nearly any situation.
    Two, the pleading re-enforces the aggressor's feeling of control.
    Three, Talking is a distraction and most people instinctively listen for the completion of a thought or sentence, whether
    intentionally or not, so a good time to attack is while they are focused on the completion of the thought.

    The following three elements, the parry, the blading and the draw must begin simultaneously, during the verbalization.
    If the blading follows the parry it might be too late
    If the draw follows the parry and the blading , it may be too late
    They must all occur or at least begin simultaneously

    In the parry, I prefer a move from my left to right and down with my off hand. There are several reasons for this.

    One, if the aggressor is right handed, which is most likely, it puts me to the outside, away from the aggressors off hand.

    Second, I prefer to blade my off side forward so my left to right parry is moving the aggressor's gun in the opposite direction of which my body is moving.

    Third, most armed ccw people, including me, are right handed. This means that they usually keep their S-O (Significant Other) on their left or off side so as to not interfere with their weapons access. Therefore, I do not want to get in the habit of parrying the aggressor's weapon in the direction my S-O would be.

    Should the aggressor be left handed the same actions will work quite well and have the same results, although you will be moving towards the inside and the aggressor's off hand. In addition, more effort must be made to control the aggressor's gun hand, as it is not wedged between the two of you. One thing to note is that the shoulder is not dropped during the parry. The reason for this is that the raised shoulder provides some protection for the face and head against the off hand of a left handed aggressor. The head is also lowered slightly, which protects it against a head butt I prefer using the palm as in addition to the parry it provides the possibility of a controlling grab. The preferred striking point with the parry is the juncture of the back of the hand and the forearm ( the wrist) of the aggressor. Striking higher on the arm may allow the wrist of the aggressor to bend back against the parry while a shot is fired. Striking lower, on the weapon, may work, but you may slip off the aggressor's weapon or you may injure your hand.

    In the blading , I believe that blading the off side forward has the most advantages.
    The blading does three things.

    One, it helps get your body off his line of fire if your parry is not completely successful.

    Two, it compliments the left to right parry and it makes your gun more difficult to attack in place or during the draw in its rearward position.

    Three, it helps protect you from a knee or kick to the groin by the aggressor.

    Blading the off side forward can be aided by a step forward with the off foot which is the method I prefer. In addition to aiding the blading the forward step contributes to forward pressure on the aggressor and puts you in a forward stance which will aid in your stability should the aggressor charge.

    The drawing of the weapon is obviously an important part of the technique

    I realize that climate, NPE's (Non Permissive Environments) and clothing requirements and preferences will affect, not only garment selection but holster type and location. Regardless of those constraints, any combination that does not allow you to draw your weapon with one hand in an expeditious manner will impair your ability to Draw Against The Drop or draw in any other combative situation. If the imparment is severe, you should forget the idea of Drawing Against The Drop and concentrate on other alternatives or change your carry method.

    The draw used is similar to a draw to the #2 Retention position of South Narc and fire. For lack of anything better I would call it The # 2 Parry Position. The difference is that the gun remains more or less in its original #2 position as the torso blades. What results is that due to the bladed torso the butt of the gun ends up near the sternum instead of the ribs. This brings the lower frame of the gun in contact with the parry arm in the area of the inner elbow. This does several important things.

    One, it prevents shooting oneself in the arm.

    Two, it makes it more difficult for the aggressor to attack your gun with his off hand.

    Three, indexing the weapon on your arm will help prevent your pushing an autoloader weapon out of battery into the aggressor thereby causing a failure to fire. If using a revolver, I would be inclined to index on the trigger guard instead of the frame to prevent possible injury from muzzle or cylinder blast.

    Once the weapon is indexed on your arm, at least three shots should be fired as fast as you can fire them. This indexing prior to firing is extremely important to prevent shooting yourself in the off arm. The entire action, including the three shots should take about one and a half seconds. Whether you use more than three or more shots to com or a zipper, which is easy to do from the arm indexed poisiton is up to you. Should the aggressor go down, I would either follow him down continuing to control his weapon or I would create movement to make a more difficult target, until I was sure he was out of action.
    For a left hander, it is a mirror image with the only difference being that you will be moving to the inside on a right hander and to the outside on a lefty.

    Guantes


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    Senior Member Array Matthew Temkin's Avatar
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    Hey--no giving away secrets for free!!!
    That is so un-American....

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    VIP Member Array Guantes's Avatar
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    Hey Matty,
    Not being a professional instructor any more, I feel at liberty to do so.

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    Senior Member Array 1911PKR's Avatar
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    I like it all Guantes,.... except indexing the weapon with your off hand (if I understood that correctly). If your 0-3' from the attacker and DATD, he'll likely already have his off hand on, or very close to you. I like the parrying and distraction with something like... I got some, uh... some money at ... uh...stash (Obama talk) while blading your strong side away and weak side toward him.... at the same time rockin' the weapon from your holster, low and slightly tilted in my case, while firing. Tilting the ejection port for a left handed shooter while the gun is at his hip, is essential if you want more than one shot. If he doesn't already have a hold on your off hand, I would have it as close as I could get it to my chest. This protects some ( although little )parts of my mid section and keeps me from shootin' myself (which would be really embarrassing).

    Thanks for teaching.
    "Success is how high you bounce when you hit bottom" Gen. George Patton

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    VIP Member Array Guantes's Avatar
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    Thanks 1911PKR,

    The reasons behind the indexing of your weapon on the off side inner elbow are several. Using the parry, along with the blading, helps insure that the muzzle of the aggressor's gun is off you. With the off arm already comitted to the parry, the index prevents shooting yourself in the arm. This elimineates a frequent problem of shoot high off hand low, shoot low off hand high, when trying to implement the use of the off hand while shooting. It is possible that he might try for your off hand or your weapon, there are some solutions for that. Also keep in mind that he has slightly over a half a second, to recognize the attack, determine a counter and implement that counter, befor the first round impacts him. In addition the indexing on the inner elbow allows for quick and easy rotation of the gun upwards for zipper or a head shot.

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    Senior Member Array 1911PKR's Avatar
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    So.... let me understand. You're incorportating all four limbs into the equation(simitaniously) by indexing your weapon with your off hand? Against the drop no less. You're MUCH more proficient in a close quarters gunfight than I am. I'm lucky to chew gum and walk at the same time. Seriously,.... under stress, against the drop, you'll be damned lucky to clear leather IMO. The sooner you can move, at the same time clear leather, get the weapon pointed in the right direction.... and pull the trigger , the better chances of living you'll have. If your gun only clears leather by a fraction and is pointed at the attackers knees, and you get the shot off, I would suggest you'll have a better chance than trying to introduce another factor, thus delaying the shot. JMO... Both may work, I'm just not that good to be able to index my weapon against an already drawn 2' from me.
    "Success is how high you bounce when you hit bottom" Gen. George Patton

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    VIP Member Array Guantes's Avatar
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    As I noted in the article it is not "The" way, it is "A" way.
    At a three foot, body distance, with the aggressor's weapon in a half hip type position that puts his weapon around twenty one inches from your body, around ten to twelve inches for your raised hands. It is very doable.
    The combination of body movements sounds much more complicated on a narrative than it actually is when seen and becomes very fluid with practice.
    I have used a variation of the method, incorporating similar body parts and movements, in the real world with success.

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    Member Array Black Oak's Avatar
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    Do you mean like this?


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    VIP Member Array Guantes's Avatar
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    I consider it a variation. He did not control the weapon/arm of the first aggressor and he did not close with him, but a case could be made that, that was so he could engage the second aggresssor. He also did not blade away from the weapon of the first aggressor. I believe that he could have maintained control of the weapon arm of the first aggressor and also engage the second, although he would have had to do it one handed. In that instance, its a toss up as to which would be better.
    Gark likes this.

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    Member Array Black Oak's Avatar
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    He was far too busy shooting, to do much blading. As cool as that sounds.

    He controlled the weapon arm of the first dirtbag long enough to take it out of the fight.

    No need to close with him, when his .45 will reach out.
    Last edited by Black Oak; September 23rd, 2010 at 02:34 AM. Reason: spelling

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    VIP Member Array Guantes's Avatar
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    It worked for him in the movie.
    The comment on closing was in reference to assisting in maintaining control of the aggressor's weapon arm, had he chosen to go that way.

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    Ex Member Array BikerRN's Avatar
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    thank you.

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    VIP Member Array Guantes's Avatar
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    Your Welcome

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    Senior Member Array Luis50's Avatar
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    I've read this post from Gloves many times over. Great stuff. I work on similar things at the range but, I plan on getting into it more in depth and with a real person instead of a target. Thanks again Gloves.
    Luis

    "Everybody's got a plan, 'til they get hit".

    Mike Tyson

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    VIP Member Array ctsketch's Avatar
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    One of the disarms I train for involve the Blade and Parry in the same way you suggest..except the offhand maintains control of the right hand and the right hand disarms... the only difference would be the draw and fire.

    Thank you for an informative post as always!
    Glock 19
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