Ten Elements of Threat Focused Shooting

This is a discussion on Ten Elements of Threat Focused Shooting within the Defensive Carry & Tactical Training forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; OK you have agreed to disagree...that is good. It's fine to agree or disagree but, please let's not get started eating entire thread pages up ...

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Thread: Ten Elements of Threat Focused Shooting

  1. #16
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    OK you have agreed to disagree...that is good.
    It's fine to agree or disagree but, please let's not get started eating entire thread pages up repetitiously rehashing the exact same disagreements into senseless redundancy.

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  3. #17
    Senior Member Array Sweatnbullets's Avatar
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    Just my opinion, but all that is way too deep and very confusing for the average person.

    As one who has been involved in a shooting and ending the life of a person who took a shot at me, I can tell you from my own experience that things happen way too fast to consider all that stuff.
    Dave T, The Ten Elements were written for the people that do not understand threat focused shooting. Some will never give it a try and some will read the Ten Elements and think to themselves "that makes sense." We are talking about simple geometry here. Once you understand the simple geometry, you basically can not miss.Those that try the basic geometry and concepts have a whole new world opened to them and continue to add threat focused skills to their tool box.

    As it says in the article, this is something that is best shown then done. Most of the threat focused instructors simply say "do this " and you would be able to "just do it." Some of the students are alright with the fact that they can "just do it." But from my experience most people want to know the "whys" of a new skill and technique.

    I was taught to just do it. But, I also understood why it worked so well. By being able to explain why it works so well, I take my students confidence level to a whole other level. Make no mistake that confidence is the ultimate key to threat focused shooting.

    As I've said a number of times the Ten Elements is all done at a sub-consciuous level in a microsecond. It would take me five minutes to explain it to you and you would be able to do it right away. The knowledge of the elements is not essential but sure helps you reach the same level of confidence that you have as a motorcycle rider.

    Knowledge instills confidence. Confidence prevents panic. Preventing panic, makes the human machine run better.

    As a threat focused instructor, all I do is introduce you to your natural abilities. Accurate threat focused shooting is something that almost every abled body individual is capable of. The human body, mind, and eyes are absolutely remarkable. Your natural abilities, reaction, response, and instincts are amazing things. One should train themselves to work inside of these assets. When the SHTF, the action is close and fast, and you find yourself behind the reactionary curve you will be solving the problem at the subconscious level. You will be doing things that is absolutely past the ability of conscious thought. The idea of the OODA loop is to ingrain responses that are accessed at a subconscious level. That is what puts you ahead of your adversary, because he is working at a conscious level. Some call this "unconsciously competent" I do not like this term....because I am not "unconscious." I prefer "subconsciously competent."

    I believe that we are on the same page. I think you have misunderstood how complex the ten elements are. They are as basic as can be. Your body, mind, and eyes will fly through these elements like they were not even there.

    They are written for the newbies that do not understand what threat focused shooting is all about.....thats all!

  4. #18
    Senior Member Array Sweatnbullets's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pickpocket
    The OODA Loop - for you military guys out there :)

    O - observe
    O - orient
    D - decide
    A - act
    It is the exact same thing isn't it?

  5. #19
    Senior Member Array Sweatnbullets's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by AirForceShooter
    if you can't do it in 4 steps it's not worth a damn.
    Took me 20 years to figure that out.

    AFS
    It really is just one thing....."Shooting"

  6. #20
    Member Array DaveT's Avatar
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    Roger,

    After reading and re-reading the link you provided with the link from 'Pat', I printed it out, then went back and compared it to what you have said in your first, and subsequent posts in this thread.

    As you said, I believe we are on the same page.... in a round about sort of way. The SIPDE process that I mentioned would be a mental way of thinking that happens in the seconds leading up to a decision to shoot, your Ten Elements would kick in once the decision to Execute was made.

    After reading Pat's review of the training you provided to him, I am both intrigued and curious. Even at 57 years of age, I am always open to new ways to aid in defending myself and my loved ones. The world is rapidly changing and all of us who carry CCW need to be as sharp and proficient as we can possibly hope to be.

    Thanks for your courteous replies, especially in light of some pretty blunt responses, including my first one.

    Also, my thanks for giving us all something else to think about!

  7. #21
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    Back in 1967 or 1968 at Ft Bliss, Texas, the Army was teaching a follow the finger method of aiming. It was incredibally simple, and was fairly accurate. It could be used with a rifle or with a pistol, but it seemed to be more effective with the rifle, for some odd reason. Time has erased much of my memories about our progress, but the bottom line was that the Army never widely adopted the point your finger and shoot technique. Any other oldtimers out there remember this technique??
    God Bless the USA

  8. #22
    Senior Member Array Sweatnbullets's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by msg usa
    Back in 1967 or 1968 at Ft Bliss, Texas, the Army was teaching a follow the finger method of aiming. It was incredibally simple, and was fairly accurate. It could be used with a rifle or with a pistol, but it seemed to be more effective with the rifle, for some odd reason. Time has erased much of my memories about our progress, but the bottom line was that the Army never widely adopted the point your finger and shoot technique. Any other oldtimers out there remember this technique??
    I just want to make it clear that I am shooting with the same grip as nearly everyone else. I do not pull the trigger with my middle finger.

    WTS, yes pointing your finger accurately is something that we all can do. It is usually done below our line of sight and it is usually aligned very close. If you put a handgun in your hand and treat it like your finger, you will have the same results.

    Just one small thing that your body does naturally, that leads you to be able to get good thoracic cavity hits at logical distances.

    Thanks for your courteous replies, especially in light of some pretty blunt responses, including my first one.
    No big deal! I do this to get the word out, not to stir up controversy. I have been doing it awhile and have no problem with the resistance that I see sometimes. It has been a facinating journey. I have gone through my "Training Phases" but this facination has stuck. I went through other facinations (low light, tactics, mindset, FOF, etc) but this one simply amazes me.

    Glad that you liked the review, if you have any questions at all, just ask. I teach this stuff for the love of it, so I will tell you everthing I know, up to a point.

  9. #23
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    I think an individual should at least examine this before dismissing it out of hand. I've never read of anyone trying to force a new shooting method on anyone by badmouthing someone else's method. The usually just want to add another play out of the playbook of staying alive. They just present the information and the recipiant can use the info or discard it. Just saying I looked into it decided it wasn't for me is the CC forum members way of being polite without rudeness thrown in. Staying alive will require a combination of all learned skills and the brain will put those skills to use that are appropriate for the threat. You shouldn't have to think about it at the point. Just train hard in the methods that float your boat and then let your subconscious save your life.
    BTW msg usa, are my eyes getting bad or are you getting uglier every day?
    Charlie - 40FIVER

    Why I carry:
    "The heart is deceitul above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it?
    Jeremiah 17:9

  10. #24
    Senior Member Array Sweatnbullets's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 40FIVER
    I think an individual should at least examine this before dismissing it out of hand. I've never read of anyone trying to force a new shooting method on anyone by badmouthing someone else's method. The usually just want to add another play out of the playbook of staying alive. They just present the information and the recipiant can use the info or discard it. Just saying I looked into it decided it wasn't for me is the CC forum members way of being polite without rudeness thrown in. Staying alive will require a combination of all learned skills and the brain will put those skills to use that are appropriate for the threat. You shouldn't have to think about it at the point. Just train hard in the methods that float your boat and then let your subconscious save your life.
    BTW msg usa, are my eyes getting bad or are you getting uglier every day?
    Thanks, back in 2003 I was looking to grow past my Modern Techniques training. I had some very strong opinions about the way that I would really fight and MT was just not covering it.

    As I searched the forums for infomation, I kept coming across the posts of a real world player that went under the handle of 7677. He was writing and posting about real world experience that was almost exactly what my beliefs were. At the time, he was a lone voice in a sea of dogma. As time has progressed many of the top trainers have headed the direction that he was preaching since 2001.

    Frankly, I can not imagine where I would be if I had dismissed his writings out of hand.

    Now days my litmus test is simple "does that make sense?" After I have analyzed a technique, concept, or skill if it passes the "does that make sense?" criteria, then it is added to the tool box. Simple as that!

  11. #25
    Senior Member Array Sweatnbullets's Avatar
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    This is a short video clip put together by John Tuuri of his wife shooting some of the drills that we shot in Vegas last month. The video was shot purely for their own pleasure and benefit, this is by no means a technical training video. They were kind enought to send a copy to me and gave me permission to post it.

    Before you view the video I would like to tell you the context of what you are about to see. Johns wife came to me with some very decent "Bullseyes" skills. She could definitely get very nice groups using her sights. Beside that she has had no prior formal training, she has never shot without using her sights, she had never done any work out of a holster, she had never shot one handed, and she had never shot while moving.

    This video is taken after about 1 1/2 days of training.

    The first drill you will see is multiples out of elbow up/elbow down, using the "turret" at three yards. She had 5-10 minutes of training in this technique prior to the video.

    The movement drills were "firsts" for her. You will see me comment on her only peripheral shot in those drills. The rest were solid hits in the thoracic cavity.

    The ending scene with the shot of the target backers also needs some context. For the "tight group only" crowd, you need to understand that we run drills that are designed to not get hits in the thoracic cavity. Zippers, hammers, and EU/ED are drills that leave a lot of vertical stringing. That is what we want!

    All of the other drills I run, are run until the "limtations" of those skills has been reached. We start at a distance where the skills excel, then we move back until the limitations have been established. We also push the speed of the drawstroke, the speed of the trigger, and the speed of the movement to establish the "limitations." This is done with every drill I run. This training has nothing to do with ego based "groups." My students are challenged until their groups start to spread out and they have a complete understandng of the skills limitations.

    Please, everyone keep the context in mind. I do not have a problem with you questioning me about what I teach or why. In my opinion, if you are a decent human being and work within the context that I have set worth, you will be as impressed with her as I am. She did a magnificent job last month and has earned my respect and admiration. I would appreciate that same respect from anyone that watches this.


    http://www.threatfocused.com/videos/...w_res_edit.wmv

  12. #26
    Member Array farmerj's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pickpocket
    The OODA Loop - for you military guys out there :)

    O - observe
    O - orient
    D - decide
    A - act
    Quote Originally Posted by Sweatnbullets
    It is the exact same thing isn't it?
    Ain't that the truth....Col Boyd really hit on something here.



    And yes, point shooting would work at close and far distances as well as from the side. Doing much the same as what his wife was doing. Including exiting a vehicle and working around obstructions. Distances up to 10 yards.

    It does work best though to square up with the target.
    Todays range time. Controlled double taps as well as point shooting from 1 to 10 yards.


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    ***** happens, it becomes the past. Live with it, learn from it and get on with it.

  13. #27
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    Very nice farmerj, and great setup.

    The video I posted does a very good job of showing the basic and advanced form of the ten elements. The basic being the multiples from the turret, the advanced form being the movement portion of the video.

    Each time she turrets, she is resetting the ten elements. Sure does not look too complexed does it? Again that was after 5-10 minutes with this particular skill (EU/ED.) I see vitually no hesitation to make the ten elements work for her in between each turret.

    The advanced form shows the versatility of the skills. It is not stance dependent, it really shines with movement, and if you can see it.....you can hit it (at logical distances.) I assure you that she was not using her sights....they were taped up.

    If you notice she does have her gun below line of sight between 2-4 inches. This gives a great field of vision. To be able to "work around obstructions" is a very important ability to have and the field of vision really facilitates that.

  14. #28
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    Never once did I say anything about using any other finger than the index. How you got that out of my post is a mystery. You follow the plane of the pointed finger. It worked and was fairly accurate. The philosophy was, if you can point at it, you can hit it! Stay Safe, come home alive.
    God Bless the USA

  15. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by msg usa
    Never once did I say anything about using any other finger than the index. How you got that out of my post is a mystery. You follow the plane of the pointed finger. It worked and was fairly accurate. The philosophy was, if you can point at it, you can hit it! Stay Safe, come home alive.
    msg usa, my mistake, sorry about that. The middle finger thing was mentioned in an earlier post. I did not address it then. I thought that you might have been bringing it up again.

    I an in total agreement with what you said, if you can point at it, you can hit it!

  16. #30
    EE
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    Does anyone in the Dayton Ohio area teach this method?

    SweatNBullets,

    Do you know if anyone in the Dayton Ohio area who teaches this method?

    EE

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