Ten Elements of Threat Focused Shooting - Page 3

Ten Elements of Threat Focused Shooting

This is a discussion on Ten Elements of Threat Focused Shooting within the Defensive Carry & Tactical Training forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; Originally Posted by EE SweatNBullets, Do you know if anyone in the Dayton Ohio area who teaches this method? EE In Cleveland. He goes by ...

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Thread: Ten Elements of Threat Focused Shooting

  1. #31
    Senior Member Array Sweatnbullets's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by EE
    SweatNBullets,

    Do you know if anyone in the Dayton Ohio area who teaches this method?

    EE
    In Cleveland.
    He goes by 7677 and is a member here.
    PM him and see what you guys can get set up.

    He is much more experienced than I and is a real world player. His knowledge base is better than most of the top trainers in the nation. The material in my course is very much his material.

    7677 is a really great guy, and I would highly recommend contacting him if you have liked the information in this thread.


  2. #32
    Senior Member Array WJP9's Avatar
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    I like it for the most part....It's like life...pull what you consider helpful out of it and disregard the rest. Some good tips in there.
    -Bill

    "Better to have it and not need it, than to need it and not have it."

  3. #33
    Senior Member Array Sweatnbullets's Avatar
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    Finding Your Visual Centerline

    This is a test developed by Jim Gregg. His book has the very best information I have ever seen on the subject. He has found and labeled 49 different "eye combinations." You can get his book here, http://www.jimgregg.net/

    Grab someone like your wife or friend and do this test.

    Have them cover one of their eyes so you can focus on the other. Take a pen and hold it out at arms length, upward in your strong side fist like a big front sight. Focus on their uncovered eye and with both eyes open, then line the pen up with their eye.

    They will be able to observe where your visual centerline is because the pen will be lined up on it. It could be directly lined up with your left or right eye [ which would be the master eye ] or it could be somewhere in between your eyes and your nose [ which would be the dominant eye. ] Have them tell you exactly what your visual centerline is. If the pen is on the nose and not on one side or the other you have equal dominance.

    Once you know your visual centerline, with both eyes open, this is where you need to work from. You work from this visual centerline at line of sight, below line of sight, and all the way down to the half hip position. If you can see the gun in your peripheral vision, then the gun should be on your visual centerline.

    In the Ten Elements, I talk about "peripheral vision verfication" Part of the peripheral verification is if you are on your visual centerline.

    You need to make sure that you are working off of your visual centerline with both two handed and one handed threat focused shooting.

    The visual centerline is a key component to the basic geometry of the basic elements of threat foucused shooting.

    The visual centerline is of the utmost importance in the advanced elements. Working off of your visual centerline in the advanced form makes it possible to hit anything that you can see, no matter what the angle or what the position is. It extends the basic geometry of the squared up stance, to where ever you look.

    As a threat focus instructor, I have two very often use diagnostician tips. They are,

    Where is your focal point?

    Where is your visual centerline?

    These two reminders always brings the hits back where they are suppose to be.

  4. #34
    Senior Member Array Sweatnbullets's Avatar
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    For those that have contacted me about this training, here is a very good place to start. Take the information in this book and apply it to what I have been saying here and you will see immediate results.

    Shooting To Live

    Here is a complete pdf of the book written by Fairbairn and Sykes. Lot's of great information, not just about pointshooting, but a lot of stuff people are now seeing as "progressive."

    "What was old, is new again."

    http://www.gutterfighting.org/files/...ng_to_live.pdf

  5. #35
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    7677 and myself travel to various states with our "Integrated Threat Focused Training Systems" courses.

    7677 and I will be back in Pa. and Tenn this fall for training, as well as Houston which is being arranged presently by one of the members here.

    Those interested in the training in these venues can contact me here or email at arizonaqkr@yahoo.com. If you are interested in sponsoring a class in your area as well, let us know and we can discuss it off line.


    Brownie
    The mind is the limiting factor

    Quick Kill Rifle and Pistol Instructor

  6. #36
    Senior Member Array Sweatnbullets's Avatar
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    Sweatnbullets took the course with 7677, myself and another instructor just 9 months ago in Tucson.
    Yes, it is true that I took the "Sightless in Tucson" course with 7677, Matt Temkin, and Robin Brown just nine months ago. But that is hardly the extent of my experience and knowledge in threat focus shooting. Since then I was recruited to become an Integrated Threat Focused Training System Instructor. I did join the team and I did teach some courses. But, that just did not work out, so I resigned. I must have had some very good ideas and I must have been a pretty good threat focus instructor to have been recruited into this venture by Robin.

    My qualifications may be being down played by Robin due my decision to resign.

    Here are a couple of more AAR's of my courses. I will let my students speak for me.
    Attached Files

  7. #37
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    Roger,
    I thank you for the kind words and for the work you have done to bring threat focused shooting back to the shooting community. It is a shame that you and Robin could not work out your differences.

    Robin maybe correct that you where given the opportunity to become known as an instructor on Threatfocused.com but it was your knowledge and ability to teach threat focused shooting techniques that resulted in outstanding AAR like those in your links.

    This is Roger’s thread and regardless of what may have happened in the past I think we owe it to the members of this forum to leave the past where it belongs and to stick to the issues that are addressed in the thread.

  8. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by 7677
    Roger,
    I thank you for the kind words and for the work you have done to bring threat focused shooting back to the shooting community. It is a shame that you and Robin could not work out your differences.

    Robin maybe correct that you where given the opportunity to become known as an instructor on Threatfocused.com but it was your knowledge and ability to teach threat focused shooting techniques that resulted in outstanding AAR like those in your links.

    This is Roger’s thread and regardless of what may have happened in the past I think we owe it to the members of this forum to leave the past where it belongs and to stick to the issues that are addressed in the thread.

    I agree 7677. If you gentlemen need to work something out, please do it through PM or email. Getting into it on a public forum doesn't help promote what the original thread was about.
    Procrastinators are the leaders of tomorrow.

  9. #39
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    I am going to move this thread to "CCW & Tactical Training" where it would belong if it were not a "personal thing". The "arguement" posts will remain just long enough for all parties involved to see that it is going away and then I will remove them. I don't think any of this is relevant to our forum members. This sort of stuff needs to be kept to PM, email, telephone or face-to-face, not taken to this forum....
    Bumper
    Coimhéad fearg fhear na foighde; Beware the anger of a patient man.

  10. #40
    Member Array Glockguy's Avatar
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    OODA................observe , orient , deside, act !

  11. #41
    Senior Member Array Sweatnbullets's Avatar
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    Line of Sight Threat Focus Shooting

    Most of my students already have substantial sighted fire skills when they come to me. Since confidence is such a key factor to accurate threat focus shooing, I like to start them out with what they already know and move them along incrementally from there.

    I start them with a one hole drill. The idea is to put five shots through one hole at five yards. This drill re-enforces the necessity for sighted fire skills for precision shots. Hard focus on the front sight, perfect sight alignment, perfect sight picture, and excellent trigger control is the goal. This also establishes their baseline marksmanship skill level.

    I next course of fire gives me an idea of the students skill level in regards to the draw stroke. I have them draw and give me 3-5 in the thoracic cavity (TC), at speed, using a "flash sight picture" from the five yard line. This begins to establishes their "safety level" and sets down their baseline for speed of draw, speed on the trigger, and accuracy at speed.

    Now I know my students skill/safety level. They are also pretty warmed up and they are feeling good about excelling at what they are already good at. I have their confidence in the palm of my hand and I can now take them into what is commonly unknown territory..... threat focus shooting.

    The concept that I use to move then into this arena is to remove the amount of the visual input on the gun, incrementally. The first drill, I have the students focus at piece of red tape in the center of the TC (the focal point), and have them keep their focus on it. I have them draw at 50% speed to the line of sight. They are shown that you can still see a fuzzy sight picture in their peripheral vision, with hard focus on the targeted area. This is a very accurate form of threat focused shooting and the distances can be pushed to very substantial distances. This is very common in competition, Enos calls it type two focus. Although common knowledge in the competitive circles, it is not at all common for most of my "tactically" trained students. We push the speed of the draw, the speed on the trigger, and the distance until the student finds his limitations with this skill.

    That is it for the sights for a while. I tape up their rear sight with a piece of black duct tape and move into alternative sighting methods. The next one that follows the "remove the visual input" concept is aligning down the slide. This is simply looking over the top of the gun and down the slide with hard focus on the focal point. Not quite as accurate as type two focus but the distances can be pushed out pretty far. Once again the limitations are explored until they are found.

    The next drill takes away more visual input. The student is told to superimpose the silhouette of the back of the slide onto the target area. This is commonly called "metal and meat" If you see metal surrounded by meat....take the shot. This technique really shines up close. Once the metal is bigger than the meat it is time to move onto another technique. Explore the limitations.

    This finally brings us to "Quick Fire." The concept behind QF is that there is a invisible box that extends from your line of sight all the way to the targeted area. The idea is to draw and punch the gun through this invisible box and to take the shot at extension. This is an excellent technique and works off of minimal visual input. Explore the limitations.

    It is not necessary to add all of these tools to your box. But the knowledge of them all, helps facilitate better accuracy in the ones that you decide to keep. Your brain will take in the information and use it without you even realizing it.

    That is it for the line of sight portion of the course. It is time to take away even more visual input by bringing the gun down and back. Preparing yourself to be able to get hits anywhere throughout the draw stroke.
    Last edited by Sweatnbullets; July 17th, 2006 at 09:24 PM.

  12. #42
    Senior Member Array Sweatnbullets's Avatar
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    What is EU/ED?
    For your edification, here are the basics of FAS (Fairbairn, Applegate, Sykes) PSing. The link below is a pdf of the complete book "Shooting to Live."

    EU/ED is the "half hip" that is seen on page 46 and the fastest way I have ever seen to get hits on on a threat. My default line of sight drawstroke is right around 1.0 second. My EU/ED draw stroke is right around .76 seconds. This is a significant amount of time in a life threatening situation. The speed of the techniques comes from the basic "economy of motion" concept. Less movement=less time!

    The term elbow up/elbow down was brought to us by Dave James and describes the drawstroke. I was shown the technique by Matt Temkin. The elbow comes up as the gun is lifted out of the holster. As soon as it clears the holster, the elbow is crashed down into the gut/hip/ribs and the shot is taken as soon as the elbow makes contact. The place where the elbow contacts coincides with the proximity of the threat.The closer the threat, the further back the elbow. The best accuracy at distance is achieved when the elbow is crashed down into the gut, just in front of the hip. This gives you an excellent "centerline."

    The use of squaring up and the centerline, along with the ability to draw the HG parrallel to the ground gives you a basic geometry formula that is foolproof. The basic geometry is so simple....anyone can do it. If you can not accomplish this basic geometry.....I pity you.

    Parallel to the ground gives you a basic "standard." Once you have the standard down, work in the eye/hand cordination and put the hits right where you are focused.

    http://www.gutterfighting.org/files/...ng_to_live.pdf

  13. #43
    Senior Member Array Sweatnbullets's Avatar
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    Breaking away from the "stance dependent" malarky

    I break my students of the stance dependent malarky during the one handed portion of the course. As they are learning to get hits all the way through their one handed drawstroke, I have them do it from six different stances (all except the half hip due to the fact that it is a body indexed skill.) Their fighting stance, the FAS stance, 45 degree to the right and the left stance, and 90 degree to the right and left stance.

    This breaks them from the basic geometry of the stance. They are now using their eye/hand cordintion off of their visual centerline.

    This also breaks them away from their "default drawstroke." One does not have to always draw one way (linear forward.) You can draw straight to the target from whichever direction that you are turned. You do not have to oreintate your body to the direction of the threat. As a matter of fact orientating your body to the direction of the threat hampers your ability to move out of the kill zone in an effective manner. These drills also prepare the students for the movement portion of the course.

  14. #44
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    I was shown the technique by Matt Temkin. The elbow comes up as the gun is lifted out of the holster. As soon as it clears the holster, the elbow is crashed down into the gut/hip/ribs and the shot is taken as soon as the elbow makes contact. The place where the elbow contacts coincides with the proximity of the threat.The closer the threat, the further back the elbow. The best accuracy at distance is achieved when the elbow is crashed down into the gut, just in front of the hip. This gives you an excellent "centerline."

    You were shown the bolded text by myself as Quick Kill Hip in Tucson It is not elbow/up elbow/down [ EU/ED ] nor will it be found in any of the WW2 combatives manuals. It's a variation of EU/ED.

    The technique of placing the elbow in front of the hip was something Lucky McDaniel trained us in, in 1981. It is also a seperate skill taught through our Integrated Threat Focused courses by myself as you were trained to use it last October.

    Brownie
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    Quick Kill Rifle and Pistol Instructor

  15. #45
    Senior Member Array Sweatnbullets's Avatar
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    That would be incorrect.

    Dave James Posted October 14, 2005 04:08 PM
    Guy, it's nothing more then the movement of the arm ,, as you draw to point/hip/half hip ect.

    With todays holster designs most draws force the elbow out and away from the body.. Elbow comes up as you draw, as you push the weapon out to what ever pont you use, it {elbow} is brought into the side,as you reach you stop point the elbow locks into the hip/gut/lower rib cage,ect.

    Think of it {elbow} as a pump handle,ie. Pump handle up{draw},Pump handle down{lock point}fire

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