FOF training

FOF training

This is a discussion on FOF training within the Defensive Carry & Tactical Training forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; Can someone explain to me a little about force on force training. I'm not sure I fully understand what this is. (I think I do ...

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Thread: FOF training

  1. #1
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    FOF training

    Can someone explain to me a little about force on force training. I'm not sure I fully understand what this is. (I think I do but I just want to make sure before I say something stupid.)

    Is it airsoft? Simunition? Paintball? All of the above?
    I havenít heard any of the journalists who volunteered to be waterboarded asking to have their fingernails wrenched out with pliers, or electrodes attached to their genitals.


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    VIP Member Array Guantes's Avatar
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    It could be airsoft, Simunition or paintball. The intent of FOF is to create as much as possible within the equipment currently available, as realistic as possible simulations of confrontational and/or criminal encounters. When properly controlled it allows the participant to test such things as their awareness, perception, situational thinking, along with their physical and weapon related attributes and abilities.
    "I do what I do." Cpl 'coach' Bowden, "Southern Comfort".

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    Quote Originally Posted by Guantes View Post
    It could be airsoft, Simunition or paintball. The intent of FOF is to create as much as possible within the equipment currently available, as realistic as possible simulations of confrontational and/or criminal encounters. When properly controlled it allows the participant to test such things as their awareness, perception, situational thinking, along with their physical and weapon related attributes and abilities.
    So for example, once at Camp Pendleton I participated in a house to house gunfight using paintball guns. That would be considered FOF?
    I havenít heard any of the journalists who volunteered to be waterboarded asking to have their fingernails wrenched out with pliers, or electrodes attached to their genitals.

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    VIP Member Array Guantes's Avatar
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    Within a broad definition of FOF, I would say yes. One of the goals of FOF is to provide identifiable and quantifiable results and paintball fulfills that general goal. I would say that a freelance paintball gunfight falls at the lower level of the purpose and goals of FOF.
    "I do what I do." Cpl 'coach' Bowden, "Southern Comfort".

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    Quote Originally Posted by Guantes View Post
    Within a broad definition of FOF, I would say yes. One of the goals of FOF is to provide identifiable and quantifiable results and paintball fulfills that general goal. I would say that a freelance paintball gunfight falls at the lower level of the purpose and goals of FOF.
    Oops. I didn't explain properly. We were using the Corps urban combat mock up there and had to clear it. Then we had to defend it. It was not (really) a paintball game.


    To clarify further. I was a high level amateur/pro paintball player for a number of years. The Corps and sometimes Navy Seals would want to come and play us in different ways. I played two seasons for a team sponsored by the Marine Corps so we would play them every now and again. It was pretty cool stuff. :)
    I havenít heard any of the journalists who volunteered to be waterboarded asking to have their fingernails wrenched out with pliers, or electrodes attached to their genitals.

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    VIP Member Array Guantes's Avatar
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    Then undoubtedly, I would say yes. The primary difference would be that you were using considerably more people that were actively involved than the normal FOF exercise.
    "I do what I do." Cpl 'coach' Bowden, "Southern Comfort".

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    Ok. Thanks Gaunts.
    I havenít heard any of the journalists who volunteered to be waterboarded asking to have their fingernails wrenched out with pliers, or electrodes attached to their genitals.

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    Our FOF uses Simunitions. We use the modified Glocks in 9mm. They are dedicated Simunition top halves that cannot fire a live round.
    We use them in different ways.

    Some are scenarios. These are events that have actually happened and someone was killed. The training mimics as much as possible the actual events that took place. They will bring you up to a certain point and then you must respond as if the event actually happened. We'll start out a mile or so away in a patrol car and get dispatched to the scene. We have an observer with us to critique every little detail. They dont actually say anything, they just watch so that they can discuss the good and the bad when the scene is over. The scene could be anything. It could be a domestic dispute, it could be a welfare check, it could be anything. You dont actually know until you get there and then you do what comes natural.

    Some scenarios are for practice. You clear a house with a team, and you have been told that shots have been fired and that the perp is still in there. You go in guns up and you cut every corner and clear every room. You never really know what'll play out until it happens. You may fire shots, you may not, you may apprehend, you may not, you never can tell what'll go down.
    Another thing that it forces you to do is to reload very quicky and seek cover. If you just try to what we call "John Wayne" it, you'll get shot. Youd be suprised how many people get shot during a reload in a protracted firefight. Of course of you you are using a team, they'll cover you but you dont always have that in some scenarios.

    We've done hostage drills, active shooter drills, all kinds of stuff. Its good training and if you screw up you'll know the hows and why of what went wrong, a luxury you wont have out in the field if you get shot.

    Simunitons shoot hard and fast and they hurt. You have plenty of motivation to not get hit. When the training is done right, its eye opening and effective and it forces you to think on your feet.
    Its good practice.
    The only disadvantage to it is that the Simunitions will stop on a wall or very litte cover that real bullet would zing right on through so taking cover behind a standard wall wouldnt work if the perp was using a rifle in the real world.
    I would rather stand against the cannons of the wicked than against the prayers of the righteous.


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    Thanks HotGuns. I would like to try that sometime.
    I havenít heard any of the journalists who volunteered to be waterboarded asking to have their fingernails wrenched out with pliers, or electrodes attached to their genitals.

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    Well, really you could do FOF with Nerf guns or water pistols, and still get some training value out of it. But the closer the gear you are using is to the gear you will fight with in real life, the more training value it will have.

    Paintball has some training value, it teaches fire and movement, the basics of cover, how confusing events can be, and how hard it is to communicate.

    Really the only limiting factors in how much you can learn from FoF is the imagination of the person creating the scenario, and how good/realistic your gear is.

    Of course, you always know you won't die for real in FoF, but simunitions and the like hurt, and pain does retain.
    Fortes Fortuna Juvat

    Former, USMC 0311, OIF/OEF vet
    NRA Pistol/Rifle/Shotgun/Reloading Instructor, RSO, Ohio CHL Instructor

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    Quote Originally Posted by buckeyeLCPL View Post
    Well, really you could do FOF with Nerf guns or water pistols, and still get some training value out of it. But the closer the gear you are using is to the gear you will fight with in real life, the more training value it will have.

    Paintball has some training value, it teaches fire and movement, the basics of cover, how confusing events can be, and how hard it is to communicate.

    Really the only limiting factors in how much you can learn from FoF is the imagination of the person creating the scenario, and how good/realistic your gear is.

    Of course, you always know you won't die for real in FoF, but simunitions and the like hurt, and pain does retain.
    Well I guess what I was looking for is what HotGuns posted. The smallest FOF stuff I had ever done was with at least 5 on 5. Mostly it was with about 20+. I got to do some neat stuff but never anything like what you guys do now. Or anything like what HotGuns was talking about.
    I havenít heard any of the journalists who volunteered to be waterboarded asking to have their fingernails wrenched out with pliers, or electrodes attached to their genitals.

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    VIP Member Array Guantes's Avatar
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    Something that I don't think has been specifically mentioned that is extremely important for FOF to serve its purpose. That is that the role players are there for the evaluation, training and improvement of the participant. They must have no ego in the training. They must follow the scenario, whatever it may be, so that the whole exercise does not turn into a spray fest. It is not a contest, it is training geared toward the evaluation and improvement of the participant. This is especially important to maintain in non regimented FOF between friends and associates.
    "I do what I do." Cpl 'coach' Bowden, "Southern Comfort".

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    Ditto that Guantes.
    We always have a pre job brief that hightlights this very thing. So far, the ones I have been involved with have been very efficient.
    I would rather stand against the cannons of the wicked than against the prayers of the righteous.


    AR. CHL Instr. 07/02 FFL
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    http://bobbailey1959.wordpress.com/

  14. #14
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    Thanks guys. Most of the stuff I have done has been what Gaunts calls a "spray fest" where a general outline is established and two opposing forces go at it. Once the fight is on there were no more rules except don't die.
    I havenít heard any of the journalists who volunteered to be waterboarded asking to have their fingernails wrenched out with pliers, or electrodes attached to their genitals.

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