Some Thoughts On Point Shooting - Page 2

Some Thoughts On Point Shooting

This is a discussion on Some Thoughts On Point Shooting within the Defensive Carry & Tactical Training forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; Originally Posted by Matthew Temkin I love when people say, " I want to maintain distance--get both hands on the gun--use my sights at all ...

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Thread: Some Thoughts On Point Shooting

  1. #16
    Member Array zip777's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Matthew Temkin View Post
    I love when people say, " I want to maintain distance--get both hands on the gun--use my sights at all times, etc, etc".
    Well, I will take it a step further and state for the record that I never want to have to fire a shot in anger.
    Funny thing about bad guys--they really don't give a damn about our wants and may force us to do things that we do not want to do.
    Hopefully they will not force you to do somethings that you never wanted to train/learn/prepare for.
    Which is why I practice all types of pistol shooting, from zero to 200 yards.
    Including point shooting.
    I have to go read that article but I agree with this statement. I've never had to shoot a bad guy and hope I never have to but I will be prepared if forced. From what I understand most SD situations are at very close range. How could you quickly draw - aim down the sights and fire quickly in such a scenario? In my CCW training...although not required...out instructor MADE US all stand within a foot or two of a silhouette target and fire quickly from the hip. MUCH different feel than aiming as you feel the forces generated by the firearm. I was really glad he did that as I have a mental image as to how that will feel burned into my brain. I will KNOW what that feels like if I am ever forced to do so...

    ...hope it never comes to that but one always needs to prepare. Now I'll go and read that article. :)


  2. #17
    VIP Member Array Guantes's Avatar
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    With practice, that hip shooting ability can relatively easily be extended to 5-7 yards.
    "I do what I do." Cpl 'coach' Bowden, "Southern Comfort".

  3. #18
    Member Array chivvalry's Avatar
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    Yeah, it makes sense... fast and a hit beats slow and a slightly more accurate hit as it will likely disrupt the slower gunfighter and cause a miss. The followup shot(s) are critical though and it's pretty darn important to not be TOO fast and miss.
    "I pledge allegiance to the Flag of the United States of America, and to the Republic for which it stands, one Nation indivisible, with liberty and justice for all."
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  4. #19
    Member Array black knife's Avatar
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    I mostly train in point shooting.......I can hit a small steel target around 40 feet away with out the sights however I would not do so in a real situation. I mostly practice about 7 to 10 feet away since most shootings occur at very close range. Point shooting should be practice more than using sights because you will never use your sights in a life threatening situation such as facing a man with a gun.
    "You fight the way you Train"

  5. #20
    VIP Member Array Eagleks's Avatar
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    I have several friends who are either, 1) target shooters, or 2) aim / shoot at targets. I do this some, but rarely. They've never had to use a gun against someone else who has one too. Being honest, I often laugh at many of the comments .... " well, I AIM .... and then I ".

    To prove my point one day, I told 3 friends at an outdoor range .... ok.. those five metal swing targets want to shoot and kill you .... shoot them as if your life depended upon it. Each one of my friends go up (one at at time of course), take careful aim, boom... one target down. Take careful aim, boom..... 2nd target down, and continue this thru all 5 metal targets. Taking about 2 minutes + to get 5 targets down.

    Then they told me, your turn........ I took a 6 shot revolver..... boom . boom. boom. boom. boom...... all 5 targets are down within about 1 second.... and I told them , "the 6th, is for the one that's till moving", shot a down target with it .... plopped in quick loader and shot the next 5 down to the left of those targets. Now, were they all "bullsyes" .... I'm sure they weren't.... but good enough to knock down a 5" stiff heavy metal target (center of mass) at 20 yrds and knock them down... YES.

    Ok, who do you think would be alive ? I honestly some times cringe about how "target shooting" teaches the wrong skills for what we want to use them for . Point shooting is a very good thing to learn.
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  6. #21
    Distinguished Member Array kelcarry's Avatar
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    Thank you guys for all your replies. Always eager to learn from comments made. As I said in my last reply, I am just a guy who understands his limitations and abilities. As much as I appreciate what a laser is for, I cannot get out of my head that in a fast moving dangerous situation that I hope none of us have to face, it is more important to have refined instinctive skills that are, by definition, point and shoot. I really believe that if I was a "regular guy", who bought into say the S&W Bodyguard/laser, under duress I would be in a heap of trouble as I began my defense with thoughts about my laser. Just cannot get that thought out of my head as I am peeing in my pants, scared to death, and wondering about my laser instead of presenting, pointing and shooting.

  7. #22
    Senior Member Array HK Dan's Avatar
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    Guys, there are times when sighted shooting is faster than point shooting. If your shot needs a level of precision dur to distance or restricted target size, sights can be a LOT faster. This is also true if the perceived consequence of a miss is unusually high. I practice both, including using the flash sight picture with target focus. It just makes sense to be familiar with all five types of visual focus..
    "What does Marcellus Wallace LOOK like?"

  8. #23
    Senior Member Array Sweatnbullets's Avatar
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    My article is very much about being open minded and using the best tool for the situation. Closed mindedness is a very bad thing no matter what side of the arguement you are on.

    It always amazes me when somebody expresses disgust in "point shooting" but then rave on about the need for "retention shooting," "contact shooting," "soft focus shooting," "type one or type two focus shooting," etc, etc. Changing the name of an established skill set to something else does not take away from the reality of the situation. If your focus is on the targeted area, you are point shooting.......like it or not!

    It all comes down to just how good you want to be inside of the reality of the fight. You can refuse to accept the fact that you point shoot, change the name, and disparage something that you actually do. Or you can just accept the reality of the fight, accept the fact that you actually point shoot, and accept the fact that the skill set allows you to be much more efficient and effecive in many aspects of the fight, inside of the fight continuum.

    You can just look at "contact distance" and decide to only reach a very basic level of knowledge or skill.

    Or you can look at retention, low light, dynamic movement, physiological effects of a life threatening encounter, activation of the sympathetic nervous system, caveman brain desire to lock visual focus on what is trying to kill you, irrefutable law of economy of motion, instincts, being behind in the reactionary curve, caveman brain desire to want visual input from the entirety of the encounter, lose of ability to "hard" focus on the sights as we age, etc, etc, and make the decision to be the very best that we can be inside of the reality of the fight.

    I have said this hundreds of times, "It is not about point shooting......it is about what point shooting allows us to do." It allows you to reach levels that you would never be able to reach if you were closed minded and did not actually see the reality of the fight for what it is. It is the reality of the fight......as typical CCWer's will have to deal with that makes point shooting such a valuable skill set.

    React as you need to react.
    Point shooting allows us to be better when we are behind in the reactionary curve and when we need to "go hands on" first.

    Take off as you need to take off.
    Point shooting allows us to take off quicker.

    Draw as you need to draw.
    Point shooting gives us a more versatile and faster draw stroke.

    Consider retention as you need to consider retention.
    Point shooting makes us a lot better inside of the retention concept.

    Drive the gun to the position of the clock that you need to drive it to.
    Point shooting makes us more versatile to any position on the clock.

    Move as you need to move.
    Point shooting allows us to move faster.

    See what you need to see.
    Point shooting allows us to see exactly what we need to see.....dictated by the situation.

    Work the grip and trigger as you need to work the grip and trigger.
    Point shooting takes into consideration the typical physiological responses to a life threatening encounter and teaches us how to use that reality to make us more efficient and effective with our grip and trigger.

    "It is not about point shooting......it is about what point shooting allows you to do inside of the reality of the fight."
    Last edited by Sweatnbullets; January 30th, 2011 at 04:14 PM.
    Roger Phillips Owner of Fight Focused Concepts

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    Situations dictate strategies, strategies dictate tactics, and tactics dictate techniques.....techniques should not dictate anything.

  9. #24
    Distinguished Member Array kelcarry's Avatar
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    If I need a laser or my sights for accuracy, I am at a distance that is not within my "limitations" nor my inclination or presumption of imminent threat of death or great bodily injury. Yes, I agree it is nice to be proficient at every aspect and every tool available for defense with a firearm, but at distances greater than say 15 yards (don't hang up on my number-the distance, in reality is the distance that I feel, I can still make decisions that do not involve my firearm), I am not going to be using my firearm as if I am target/accuracy shooting at distance with the use of a laser. My firearm is for my protection under a scenario that I can visibly make a presumption of imminent threat and that distance is within the purview of point shoot.
    One of the things I cannot understand on many threads and replies is how supposedly defensive shooting, under everyday/civilian activities, relates to distances beyond say 10 or 20 plus yards---I am sure someone can probably give me a "what if" but there is just no way, IMO as a regular gentleman with extreme situational awareness, that I can see presenting my firearm with a need to fire because of imminent threat at those kinds of distances.
    Last edited by kelcarry; February 1st, 2011 at 08:36 AM.

  10. #25
    Senior Member Array Sweatnbullets's Avatar
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    Another sacred cow being butchered up for a BBQ. Here is a quote that is often thrown around on the errornet as fact.

    Aimed practice can degrade into acceptable point shooting.
    Point shooting practice will NEVER upgrade into good aimed fire.

    That would be an absolute myth perpetrated by those that do not know what they do not know. I have taught countless student how to transition from point shooting to sighted fire, by doing nothing more than transitioning their focus. Eye/hand coordination is what puts the gun on target. The sights are nothing more than the final 2%-5% verification of an already accurate aim.

    Let's look at the difference in the philosophical mindset from the very start, before we even begin to draw the gun.

    The sighted fire only crowd are chanting their mantra "front sight, front sight......press. They are focused on their targeted area, usually the upper thoracic cavity. Their plan is to draw into the area and get on the front sight, in order to get a nice sight picture or a flash sight picture.

    Let's compare this to a point shooter that is working on his point shooting skill sets.

    The point shooter is chanting his mantra "focal point, focal point.....drive the gun to the focal point." They are focused on a dime size "point" usually in the dead center of the thoracic cavity. Their plan is to use the very most efficient and effective body mechanics inside of their eye/hand coordination to target that dime size "point."

    The point shooter is not relying on his sights. He is relying on his solid body mechanics to give him the very best eye/hand coordination that he can possibly achieve.

    If we look at this reality and the prioritization of the thinking it is clear that the point shooter will end up on target in a more efficient manner than the person that believes that his accuracy is dictated and controlled by his sights.

    The point shooters prioritization of thinking is about not having to rely on his sights. He strives for perfection of the body, the mind, and the eyes.

    When this type of thinking is performed correctly the sights will be aligned on the focal point, whether you are using them or not.

    It is this prioritization of thinking that allows for a point shooter to improve his sighted fire skills significantly while practicing his point shooting skill sets. It becomes nothing more than a transition of the focus from the focal point, to the point that the front sight is being driven out to, during the draw stroke.

    The solid body mechanics of the eye hand coordination is used from the very start. This will align your sights onto the targeted point more efficiently and effectively.

    I will never teach a "sight fire only" course or a "point shooting only" course ever again. In my not so humble opinion that is not the best way to teach. It is my opinion that it is best to teach both in conjunction with each other. When you are learning or practicing your sighted fire skills you should be constantly reminded of the correlations to your point shooting skills. When you are learning or practicing your point shooting skills you should be constantly reminded of your sighted fire skills.

    I believe that is the way to become the very best you can be inside of both skill sets.

    Point shooting practice can upgrade to quality sighted fire. There is no doubt in my mind that if you think like a point shooter, you will achieve better sighted fire. The sights will be on target.

    Notice I always write "2-5% final verification of an already accurate aim." The better your point shooting skill sets, the less percentage of verification you will need from the sights. That means that you will be faster and more accurate when you do use your sights.

    I would really like to hear comments on this!
    Roger Phillips Owner of Fight Focused Concepts

    http://fightfocusedconcepts.wordpress.com/

    Situations dictate strategies, strategies dictate tactics, and tactics dictate techniques.....techniques should not dictate anything.

  11. #26
    Member Array Cruel Hand Luke's Avatar
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    Part of the problem is that people (rightly or wrongly) will often envision point shooting as shooting from the hip, not shooting the way you describe it in the post.

    My own opinion is that the mental imagery people have (due to point shooting instructors of the past focusing on below line of sight shooting and trying to argue it could be made to make it fit into ALL problems) combined with the inability of some of them to articulate their position without starting a fight has led many to dismiss it outright.

    Another key is when PS teachers advocated "yank and crank" with convulsive grip on the pistol and smacking the trigger to shoot at close range. This DOES NOT WORK for sighted fire. Problem is people not able to discern certain things are TECHNIQUES for specific distance, not overall encompassing concepts for all shooting. So the guys who tended to finesse the trigger from eye level tended to outshoot (at distance gretaer than 3 yards) the folks who tried to elbow up elbow down and convulsive grip the gun and jerk the trigger. Not that the particualr technique din not have a place...it just does not fit into EVERY place.

    Remember the Weaver stance came about as a solution to a specific problem also. Hitting a 8" target at 7 yards at the Big Bear Leatherslap competitions. The target was of a size and at a distance that hip shooting was inappropriate for all but the most dexterous of shooters and the guys who shot from eye level won the majority of the time. Had the target been bigger and half the distance then the results would likely have been different...so all tools need to be used in their proper context.

    But limiting oneself to one or the other (sighted vs target focus) essentially limits your ability to respond to developing situations. Simply put, if time and distance allows, you'd be making a mistake to not use your sights in order to shoot more precisely. On the other hand if time is short and distance is close then taking time to use the sights may not be appropriate.

    The key is to learn where each is appropriate. Point shooting is not JUST Hip Shooting. In fact that is just a PIECE o the over all point shooting puzzle. Any time you are shooting and not FOCUSING on the sights you are by definition point shooting. Even if you have some visual input from he gun (ie seeing it peripherally) you are still point shooting...right up to the point that you are shifting your focus to the gun. When your focus is on the gun or the sights, we are now gun or sight focused, not target focused.

    At the distance where the overwhelming majority of pistol fights take place (5 yards or LESS) there is no real NEED to have a picture perfect sight picture...unless you are trying to shoot someone in the eye. Otherwise you can largely just drive the gun to the target and PRESS the trigger with enough finesse to keep from jerking it off target and still make EXCELLENT hits. You have a natural ability to align the bones in your arm with an object ...it is called pointing. So if your grip aligns the gun with the bones in your arm and you "point " at the target then the muzzle will be where it needs to be.

    We see ths over and over when we teach the Defensive Pistol Skills class. If I lift the psitol from the holster and drive it to full extension the overwhelming majority of the time my sights will either be exactly lined up where I want them to be OR they will be VERY close...IF my grip is good. Do that a few hundred times (or less), seeing the sights line them self up with great regularity and you will eventually develop the trust in your ability to drive the gun to where you needed it to be. Then you will see you can stop NEEDING to look for them to prove you did it right and you can stop taking the time to look for them. Then you'll end up just looking over the top of the gun at the target and as a byproduct you will be able to draw and shoot faster and equally importantly not be "tunneled in" behind your sights and lose most of your peripheral vision.

    The point is that those who do not just blindly accept what "gurus" say will grow and develop and realize that BOTH the ability to shoot using the sights to make precise shots and the confidence to not have to take the time to look for the sights on close targets combine to make one a VERY competent gunman.
    Last edited by Cruel Hand Luke; February 8th, 2011 at 06:15 PM.
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  12. #27
    VIP Member Array Eagleks's Avatar
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    learn every technique and tool you can, you never know which one you need or use, or if all of them... it's better to be prepared, than found wishing you had. Practice the one's the most that can be used in the most applications.

    My "preference" is being "best" at point shooting... and it's the one technique I"ve found the most useful in real life.
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    Chief Justice John Roberts : "I don't see how you can read Heller and not take away from it the notion that the Second Amendment...was extremely important to the framers in their view of what liberty meant."

  13. #28
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    Thanks for the link, good thread and good info, always been a proponent of PS.
    While people are saying "Peace and safety," destruction will come on them suddenly, ... and they will not escape. 1Th 5:3

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