The best solutions to pistol malfunctions - Page 3

The best solutions to pistol malfunctions

This is a discussion on The best solutions to pistol malfunctions within the Defensive Carry & Tactical Training forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; The more options you have to mentally scroll through the slower you'll be in deciding on which one to use. That's a fact. In fact, ...

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Thread: The best solutions to pistol malfunctions

  1. #31
    Member Array JodyH's Avatar
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    The more options you have to mentally scroll through the slower you'll be in deciding on which one to use.
    That's a fact.
    In fact, may I quote your fellow SI instructor/guru Gabe himself:
    Quote Originally Posted by Gabe Suarez View Post
    Let me put this in perspective...the manipulation is not what takes so long...it is the thinking and analysis.
    If you have 3 different ways to reload your gun your mind will scroll through and evaluate all three before deciding and acting on one of those options.
    That's extra opportunity for a OODA reset.
    Get your gun back up and running as quickly as possible, then worry about the empty magazine.
    An EMPTY magazine and an EMPTY gun are useless in a GUNFIGHT.
    As to how long it takes to stash a magazine.
    If it takes an extra 2 seconds, that's 2 seconds that your opponent is shooting and you aren't shooting.
    Considering untrained individuals can fire 4-5 rounds per second, that 2 seconds can equal 8-10 incoming rounds while you have an EMPTY rifle.
    The average person can cover 21' in 2 seconds, again that's a lot of ground your opponent can cover while you have an EMPTY rifle.


  2. #32
    Member Array JodyH's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CR Williams View Post
    Do they actually teach you to look down like that during mag changes or weapon manipulations where you train?

    That boggles the imagination if they really do that. Do they really do that?
    Quote Originally Posted by Gabe Suarez View Post
    It is the same principal we see in other actions under duress. The eyes want to see what the hands are doing . And maybe trying to untrain a natural tendency is a waste of time
    Aren't you both Suarez instructors?
    Isn't there just a bit of inconsistency here?

  3. #33
    Member Array Gabe Suarez's Avatar
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    Jody, there is no inconsistency in anything. What I have written seems to have shaken your paradigm and you are incessant in trying to pick a fight. I am not going to do that with you bro. The eyes do want to look at anything challenging thus when we reload we bring the gun up into the line of sight. Putting a magazine into a dump puch is not nearly as challenging. Perhaps if you come out and train with us you will see that. In fact, I may let you come and train a force on force class at no cost just so you can see for yourself. But I think perhaps your mind was made up the minute you saw who it was that wrote this.

    As far as gun manipulations, you know Jody, what YOU should do is to reload however your sensei taught you and how you feel best. Nobody is trying to convince you otherwise. I, however, think your reasoning and your training are flawed. I will keep doing exactly what I have been doing and so will my guys.

    Best of luck to you bro.

  4. #34
    Member Array Cruel Hand Luke's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JodyH View Post
    The more options you have to mentally scroll through the slower you'll be in deciding on which one to use.
    That's a fact.
    In fact, may I quote your fellow SI instructor/guru Gabe himself:

    If you have 3 different ways to reload your gun your mind will scroll through and evaluate all three before deciding and acting on one of those options.
    That's extra opportunity for a OODA reset.
    Get your gun back up and running as quickly as possible, then worry about the empty magazine.
    An EMPTY magazine and an EMPTY gun are useless in a GUNFIGHT.
    As to how long it takes to stash a magazine.
    If it takes an extra 2 seconds, that's 2 seconds that your opponent is shooting and you aren't shooting.
    Considering untrained individuals can fire 4-5 rounds per second, that 2 seconds can equal 8-10 incoming rounds while you have an EMPTY rifle.
    The average person can cover 21' in 2 seconds, again that's a lot of ground your opponent can cover while you have an EMPTY rifle.
    No one is saying to do it if you are out in the open and bullets are flying. And you are arguing 2 DIFFERENT things. With a rifle and a pistol the DISTANCE involved is going to make some difference. If my RIFLE goes click instead of bang and they are closer than 50 yards I transition to pistol and keep shooting. If My RIFLE goes click and they are farther than that and I am not behind cover then I will reload as fast as I can however I can and try to "get small" at the same time. If I am behind cover and they are fartehr than 50 yards then I will reload with retention. Because they are going to have to be USAIN BOLT to cover THAT much ground before I can pull a mag out stow it in my dump pouch and reload. And that is an awful long way for them to try to make a banzai charge....THEY don't KNOW I'm empty......I may just be moving for all they know.....so your whole argument is based on them knowing what I know FOR SURE and them being willing to risk their lives to see if they can cover that ground faster than I can stow and reload....

    With a PISTOL.....If the slide locks open and people still need to be shot then the mag gets ejected and a new one slammed in , slide closed and back to shooting. I'll worry with trying to find it later. So my DEFAULT response to my slide locking open is "Eject,reload". If the shooting is over for now, AND I'm deciding to top off, then it is "magazine out, stow it, magazine in". But that is for when I am proactively deciding to reload, not for when the gun is TELLING me (by the locked open slide) that it needs to be reloaded. There is a difference. So if it locks open, drop mag and reload. If I make a conscious decision to top off, then I pull mag out , stow it and reload. Simple.

    You see the CONTEXTUAL difference in rifle use and pistol use is huge. Rifles are carried PROACTIVELY. You simply do not carry a rifle down the street unless you EXPECT trouble or unless you are in the military serving somewhere other than the US. Pistols are REACTIVE tools. I am VERY likely to get in a pistol fight at less than 5 yards with no cover to be gotten to until it is over and it to be over in less than 5 seconds. Rifle fights are not typically that close and there typically IS cover to be found in an urban environment when you are LOOKING for the fight or looking to not get ambushed...not so much when you are just going across the parking lot to pay for gas. So the 2 contexts are as different as night and day....the only real similarity is they both involve guns. Other than that is like comparing checkers and chess.
    Randy Harris
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  5. #35
    Member Array Cruel Hand Luke's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JodyH View Post
    Aren't you both Suarez instructors?
    Isn't there just a bit of inconsistency here?
    No. There is not even a shred of inconsistency here. There is a difference between looking at it and looking DOWN at it.

    Your eyes will go to the gun. I call the gun muzzle an "eye magnet"....because people look at the gun during reloads.

    If you reload at the waist with gun pointed at the ground then you will LOOK at the ground and not at what is going on downrange. That is why we teach you to reload with it up in your "work space" with the gun in front of your face so that you can see what is going on down range and still see the mag well if you need to look at it for a split second to get the mag inserted.


    Edited to say....Looks like Gabe was posting as I was typing my response.
    Randy Harris
    Suarez International Tier 1 Staff Instructor
    NRA Certified Instructor
    Master Class IDPA SSP

    TRAIN with me....http://www.suarezinternationalstore....px?find=harris

  6. #36
    Member Array JodyH's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gabe Suarez View Post
    Perhaps if you come out and train with us you will see that.
    Been there, done that, twice.

  7. #37
    Member Array JodyH's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cruel Hand Luke View Post
    No. There is not even a shred of inconsistency here. There is a difference between looking at it and looking DOWN at it.
    That is why we teach you to reload with it up in your "work space" with the gun in front of your face so that you can see what is going on down range and still see the mag well if you need to look at it for a split second to get the mag inserted.
    And your mag pouch/dump pouch is where?
    Up in your workspace or down on your belt?
    Remember we are talking about saving the spare magazine, not the actual reload of the rifle.
    I've watched enough people fumble putting their pistol back in an open top kydex holster without looking to know that under stress they're going to fumble putting an empty magazine away. And as soon as they do fumble they're going to look DOWN at the magazine and pouch.
    As Gabe so eloquently put it: "It is the same principal we see in other actions under duress. The eyes want to see what the hands are doing . And maybe trying to untrain a natural tendency is a waste of time"

  8. #38
    Senior Member Array Chad Rogers's Avatar
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    Personally I have never had occasion where my eyes needed to look down to grab my magazine out of the magazine carrier on my belt. Not once.

  9. #39
    Member Array JodyH's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chad Rogers View Post
    Personally I have never had occasion where my eyes needed to look down to grab my magazine out of the magazine carrier on my belt. Not once.
    Again... we are discussing saving/stashing the empty magazine, not grabbing the loaded magazine.
    It's much harder to put a magazine (especially a rifle magazine) back into a pouch than it is to take one out.

  10. #40
    Member Array Gabe Suarez's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JodyH View Post
    Been there, done that, twice.
    Yup...I know who you are bro. Your last name begins with an "H" and has two "g"s, and you are in New Mexico. The class was at Mike Herd's place in Winters. But I am not your "primary influence" in the gun world am I bro.

    Did you do any force on force with us in that class Jody? No. At the speed with which we are advancing things and testing and so on, the paradigm you experienced in 2003 does not even exist any more. Like I said bro. Do whatever you want however you want, but what you are doing is not what we do.

  11. #41
    Member Array Gabe Suarez's Avatar
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    Hey is there an "IGNORE" feature in this forum??

  12. #42
    VIP Member Array zacii's Avatar
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    I think it's great that you trainer guru dudes have decided to hang out at our friendly forum

    I trained at Front Sight. They taught, I'm guessing, old school malfunction clearing; acknowledge, assess, clear, back into the fight. But, I can clearly see the reasoning behind the drills mentioned by the OP.

    I am going to implement them in my own practice. It just makes too much sense
    Trust in God and keep your powder dry

    "A heavily armed citizenry is not about overthrowing the government; it is about preventing the government from overthrowing liberty. A people stripped of their right of self defense is defenseless against their own government." -source

  13. #43
    Senior Member Array Sweatnbullets's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JodyH View Post
    Again... we are discussing saving/stashing the empty magazine, not grabbing the loaded magazine.
    It's much harder to put a magazine (especially a rifle magazine) back into a pouch than it is to take one out.
    If this is true for you......you may want to look into getting some training. It would appear that your training is severely lacking.

    Just because you do not have the training, the proper equipment, or the skills does not mean that other people are as inefficient and ineffective as you.

    Once again, you may want to expand your horizons so that you are not so flat sided. Being well rounded means that you need to have the knowledge and skills to be efficient and effective in a wide variety of situations......not just on the square range.......but inside of a fight.
    Roger Phillips Owner of Fight Focused Concepts

    http://fightfocusedconcepts.wordpress.com/

    Situations dictate strategies, strategies dictate tactics, and tactics dictate techniques.....techniques should not dictate anything.

  14. #44
    Distinguished Member Array kelcarry's Avatar
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    Not trying to be a smartass and apologize if I have already replied and/or am coming off as a smartass, but my solution to a pistol malfunction from Day 1 is a revolver. When I first thought of firearm ownership and watched the machinations and explanations given as a pistol was shown to me, and coupled that with what I perceive to be my reasons for owning, a revolver was clearly my choice. Put the 5 in, pull the trigger--done. No need to refute my comments with the obvious benefits of more capacity etc etc--if it don't work right when you need it, it could be a grenade launcher for all I care--all you have in your hands is a piece of junk.

  15. #45
    Senior Member Array Chad Rogers's Avatar
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    Again... we are discussing saving/stashing the empty magazine, not grabbing the loaded magazine.
    It's much harder to put a magazine (especially a rifle magazine) back into a pouch than it is to take one out.
    I have never had to look down in order to put a magazine into a pants pocket. I think I have always known exactly where my pants pockets are since I was about 2. YMMV...

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