The best solutions to pistol malfunctions

This is a discussion on The best solutions to pistol malfunctions within the Defensive Carry & Tactical Training forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; Originally Posted by kelcarry Not trying to be a smartass and apologize if I have already replied and/or am coming off as a smartass, but ...

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Thread: The best solutions to pistol malfunctions

  1. #46
    Senior Member Array Chad Rogers's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kelcarry View Post
    Not trying to be a smartass and apologize if I have already replied and/or am coming off as a smartass, but my solution to a pistol malfunction from Day 1 is a revolver. When I first thought of firearm ownership and watched the machinations and explanations given as a pistol was shown to me, and coupled that with what I perceive to be my reasons for owning, a revolver was clearly my choice. Put the 5 in, pull the trigger--done. No need to refute my comments with the obvious benefits of more capacity etc etc--if it don't work right when you need it, it could be a grenade launcher for all I care--all you have in your hands is a piece of junk.
    Not to mention the advantages of leaving no brass on the scene, especially since said brass might have one's fingerprints thereon.

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  3. #47
    Member Array Gabe Suarez's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kelcarry View Post
    Not trying to be a smartass and apologize if I have already replied and/or am coming off as a smartass, but my solution to a pistol malfunction from Day 1 is a revolver. .
    Kel,

    I don't disagree with you on the wheelgun's utility. It is not perfect however and has its own issues. If you have ever had one lock up on you, you will trully be out of options. The wheelgun (a S&W model 67 and later a model 686) was my original duty/carry gun. That said, very few revolvers are being used in comparison to semi-autos. At least if I look at what I see in our classes, and in the holsters of Arizonans. I do see the occassional wheel gun, but they are definitely in the minority in the circles I move.

  4. #48
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    I have no disagreements with your OP. When fractions of a second count, nothing is more important than speed in getting a firearm back into action.

    As minimal as it was, even my Air Force firearms training pounded in the point to "hang on to your empty mags." Extra ammo was always available; extra mags ,maybe not.

    "I have a progression of movements that can be done in total brainlessness "
    Now we're talking my kind of training!
    Retired USAF E-8. Avatar is OldVet from days long gone. Oh, to be young again.
    Paranoia strikes deep, into your heart it will creep. It starts when you're always afraid... "For What It's Worth" Buffalo Springfield

  5. #49
    Senior Member Array Chad Rogers's Avatar
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    I recently acquired a model 60 for the house. Primarily so that the lady of the house, who has small hands and little pistol experience, would have a point and shoot with few issues that could go wrong piece. I found that a better solution than trying to force my semi-suto view of the world on her. Getting her to a range will be like pulling teeth, but doing some dry firing and basic revolver manipulations at least has her comfortable with what a revolver is all about. Now when I travel I will be a little more comfortable about her being home alone.

  6. #50
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    I agree with much of what was posted in OP.

    Jody H , it appears to me is looking at things from his perspective, and what he was taught, but is trying to slam the "other" side/viewpoint of the discussion, for whatever reason.

    Gabe, classy as was expected for not going there.


    Quote Originally Posted by Chad Rogers View Post
    I recently acquired a model 60 for the house. Primarily so that the lady of the house, who has small hands and little pistol experience, would have a point and shoot with few issues that could go wrong piece. I found that a better solution than trying to force my semi-auto view of the world on her. Getting her to a range will be like pulling teeth, but doing some dry firing and basic revolver manipulations at least has her comfortable with what a revolver is all about. Now when I travel I will be a little more comfortable about her being home alone.




    ^^^^^^^I am in this camp for all, who would not fully understand the "semi-auto pistol",^^^^^

    But still needs the assurance and protection, the simplicity of a revolver brings.
    Just because someone is not as "into" firearms as some, does not denigrate the fact that they to need to be safeguarded.


    Quote Originally Posted by Gabe Suarez View Post
    Kele,

    I don't disagree with you on the wheel gun's utility. It is not perfect however and has its own issues. If you have ever had one lock up on you, you will truly be out of options. The wheel gun (a S&W model 67 and later a model 686) was my original duty/carry gun. That said, very few revolvers are being used in comparison to semi-autos. At least if I look at what I see in our classes, and in the holsters of Arizonans. I do see the occasional wheel gun, but they are definitely in the minority in the circles I move.


    ^^^^^^^^^^This is the main reason I carry an auto for my primary^^^^^^^^^

    More rounds downrange if need be toward the threat, to end the threat.


    Quote Originally Posted by buckeyeLCPL View Post
    I have a drop pouch on my rifle set up, makes it really easy to retain my magazine after a reload. I think leaving magazines on the deck is a bad idea, I never saw a re-supply that included magazines.

    Also, I never ran dry in a gunfight, after engaging, while still behind cover, I would replace the partially empty magazine with a fresh one. FWIW, this was in combat, and I had 10 30 round magazines. But then again, I maintained my weapon, and didn't have any malfunctions either. I have had several malfunctions on ranges with M-16's, and except for 1 round over bolt incident, most were double feeds, caused by worn out government magazines (I bought my own PMAGs to take to country). A quick shift of the weapon allows the operator to see what kind of malfunction it is (if the bolt is closed, tap, rack bang, if it isn't all the way forward, remedial action, including taking out the magazine.)

    Additionally, in a live gunfight, if someone is reloading, or attempting to clear a malfunction, and not trying to move to cover at the same time, in my mind, they are wrong.

    ^^^^^^^^This has sensibility written all over it, from a very real world viewpoint^^^^^^^^^

    Which can easily be adapted to civilian life, POOP happens scenarios.


    [QUOTE=OldVet;1867526]I have no disagreements with your OP. When fractions of a second count, nothing is more important than speed in getting a firearm back into action.

    As minimal as it was, even my Air Force firearms training pounded in the point to "hang on to your empty mags." Extra ammo was always available; extra mags ,maybe not.

    "I have a progression of movements that can be done in total brainlessness "
    Now we're talking my kind of training![/
    QUOTE]


    ^^^OldVet, now this was just plain funny!!!!!!!!!^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
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  7. #51
    Senior Member Array Sweatnbullets's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chad Rogers View Post
    I have never had to look down in order to put a magazine into a pants pocket. I think I have always known exactly where my pants pockets are since I was about 2. YMMV...
    Yep, depleated handgun mag in the pocket is very fast and sure. I never look, because just like you I have put my hands in my pocket since I was two.

    Depleted rifle mag in a good dump pouch is just as fast and just as sure. I am not sure where all of the difficulty is........therefore it must be a training issue for a very small majority of people.......or just a closed mind without having actually having put in the work. Dogma tends to do that.

    Being closed minded is a curse of the weak minded.

    Critical thinking, willingness to put the work in to test processes through solid science, flexibility, and open mindeness is the advantage of the strong minded. The strong minded refuse to blindly follow anyone. They are willing to point out that the emperor indeed has no cloths on.

    There is alot of blind following inside of the gun world.

    Question everything!

  8. #52
    Member Array JodyH's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sweatnbullets View Post
    If this is true for you......you may want to look into getting some training. It would appear that your training is severely lacking.

    Just because you do not have the training, the proper equipment, or the skills does not mean that other people are as inefficient and ineffective as you.
    LMAO...
    Tell you what Roger, anytime you want to compare skill level or training resume's... I'm your Huckleberry.

  9. #53
    Member Array Cruel Hand Luke's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JodyH View Post
    And your mag pouch/dump pouch is where?
    Up in your workspace or down on your belt?
    Remember we are talking about saving the spare magazine, not the actual reload of the rifle.
    I've watched enough people fumble putting their pistol back in an open top kydex holster without looking to know that under stress they're going to fumble putting an empty magazine away. And as soon as they do fumble they're going to look DOWN at the magazine and pouch.
    As Gabe so eloquently put it: "It is the same principal we see in other actions under duress. The eyes want to see what the hands are doing . And maybe trying to untrain a natural tendency is a waste of time"
    My dump pouch is located on my chest rig at about 10 o'clock just to the left of my farthest left mag pouch....you know, the one I'll be reloading with first. So my hand actually only travels just past the mag to hit the dump pouch and then picks up the mag from mag pouch on its way back to the mag well. Very fast .Very efficient. The mag moves less than a foot from the mag well to the pouch. If I am running a bag instead of my chest rig then the dump pouch is the outside "dump pouch" pocket on the bag.

    And you are talking about two different things again....Hitting a 2" by 3 " hole with the muzzle of a pistol is a bit more dexterity dependant than hitting a 6" diameter hole (dump pouch) with my hand as I stuff a mag into it. And YES, with it located there it is still in my peripheral vision when the rifle is up in my work space. That comes down to setting up your gear to be most efficient.In fact in the AK class we work this skill dry (unload/stash/reload) stationary then while walking and then while jogging...and we have yet to find someone who cannot do it. If your dump pouch is located somewhere you can reach it then you shouldn't have any trouble with fumbling the mags onto the ground.

    On pistol reloads in civilian clothes....If I am doing a PROACTIVE reload then I strip the mag out and my hand moves to my left rear pants pocket. I insert the mag there and my hand moves back up past my mag pouch grabbing the new mag on the way back to the mag well. Again...very fast very efficient.
    Randy Harris
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  10. #54
    Senior Member Array Chad Rogers's Avatar
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    Personally I do not look askance at folks who choose the drop mags route. It's just not for me.

    I learned to retain mags in the Army. I felt this systemic approach was a beneficial mindset to have when I worked and carried in another country. I am comfortable with this vision.

  11. #55
    Member Array Gabe Suarez's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JodyH View Post
    ... I'm your Huckleberry.
    There is a story about the "Leatherslap" guys in the 1950s-60s era. One Hollywood type who was good a revolver fanning challenged Audy Murphy to a leatherslap on balloons with blank ammo. He apparently put ads in the Hollywood rages and everything. When reporters asked Mr. Murphy about he smiled. Murphy, as some will recall, was a decorated WW2 veteran with plenty of real world experience. His reply to the challenge was classic and applicable here.

    "With real ammo - anytime".

    Jody, be careful what you wish for bro.

  12. #56
    Distinguished Member Array kelcarry's Avatar
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    Hey Gabe: Understand what you are saying and understand the differences between pistols and revolvers and the advantages of pistols, but, from the comments you have made on many issues of SD and CC. we move on very different levels. I read your comments and learn from them but, as I have said on many replies, I am 69, have never, never, never come close to anything remotely approaching a need for a firearm or SD. Maybe I have been fortunate in those 69 years living, working and retiring to areas that have not been subject to any personal-type crime; I also consider myself situationally aware and smart enough to avoid such possiblities. I can honestly say that my first reason for purchasing a firearm and obtaining a CC is more a statement about what I consider a despicable and dangerous federal government and, in my own way, I am protesting this continuous eroding of my liberty and constitutional rights, by embracing 2A contrary to all the wannabe dictators within this so-called federal government. What ifs are always out there but I believe I know "my limitations", as Dirty Harry would say, and do not feel that having a pistol and more cartridges etal will serve me well. Kindly keep up your threads and replies--I read them, appreciate them, and learn from many of them.

  13. #57
    Member Array Gabe Suarez's Avatar
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    Thanks Kel. I hope my musings are worth reading to the folks here. I am on a lunch break right now during a tactics class and wanted to optimize my time as it were. My job as I see it is to bring as much worthy information based on my expereinces and those of my staff. Not all of it may be applicable to everyone, but those who want to know, we will tell them and help them be able to do what they want to do.

  14. #58
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    Sometimes egos get bigger than the brains behind them. Challenges are not the order of the day here.
    Retired USAF E-8. Avatar is OldVet from days long gone. Oh, to be young again.
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  15. #59
    VIP Member Array 10thmtn's Avatar
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    Regarding civilians in a defensive scenario needing to reload their rifles...

    Unless you are living on the Mexican border and worry about getting into a pitched battle with the Zeta drug cartel, I just don't see too many realistic scenarios where you are going to need your rifle to send that much lead down range in so much of a hurry that your reload/stow method is going to be an issue.

    In the more likely "temporary breakdown of law and order" scenarios, you're going to be facing looters, rioters, mobs of folks, etc. Some may be armed; most will not. In that scenario, you may need to deal with certain members of the mob (the more aggressive and/or armed ones), but the rest will scatter when faced by armed resistance. Unarmed mobs will not usually go on a banzai charge toward gunfire, even if they could, in theory, overwhelm you...because none of the individuals within the mob wants to be the unlucky one to get shot.

    We faced down several very large, very hungry, and very angry mobs in Somalia. I'm proud of the fact that we never actually needed to fire a single shot. So, I have a bit of real world experience with EOTWAWKI scenarios.

    Thus, all this discussion about mag changes, dumping vs retaining the mag, etc...seems to me to be of little relevance to the average civilian defensive rifle shooter. If you engage in fantasies about taking part in partisan actions, or are in fact an "operator" in real life, then maybe these discussions are a bit more relevant.

    Carry on...
    The more good folks carry guns, the fewer shots the crazies can get off.
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  16. #60
    Member Array Cruel Hand Luke's Avatar
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    And because we are just as likely to be teaching real world operators in class as we are librarians we teach the retention reload as our default reload. And BECAUSE we are unlikely to actually be emptying them, the reload with retention makes even MORE sense because we will likely just be topping off.....not reloading an empty gun...standing in the open...like on the square range....or like an IPSC 3 gun match.....

    The average civilian is not likely to empty a hi cap mag.....but in the odd instance that they do find themself in that situation they will have a methodology that works for them whether it is a "typical" engagement or whether it is an atypical one on the mexican border.
    Randy Harris
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