The best solutions to pistol malfunctions

This is a discussion on The best solutions to pistol malfunctions within the Defensive Carry & Tactical Training forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; Originally Posted by tcox4freedom I'd love to take a class from you are one of your SI instructors. But, you haven't been in Florence, SC ...

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Thread: The best solutions to pistol malfunctions

  1. #76
    VIP Member Array Blackeagle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tcox4freedom View Post
    I'd love to take a class from you are one of your SI instructors. But, you haven't been in Florence, SC in awhile. I'd love for you to point me in the right direction in my area.
    Upcoming SI Classes in Columbia, South Carolina:
    Fighting Rifle Skills - February 12-13
    Introduction to Point Shooting - February 26
    Defensive Pistol Skills - March 5-6
    Shotgun Gunfighting - March 26-27
    Point Shooting Gunfight Skills - April 2-3

    There will also be a Defensive Pistol Skills class in Myrtle Beach on April 30-May 1, and a Close Range Gunfighting class in Columbia on May 7-8. They're not on the SI website yet, but they should be popping up later this week.
    Chris Upchurch - Suarez International Staff Instructor
    Upcoming SI Classes in South Carolina:
    Close Range Gunfighting - March 17-18
    Zero to Five Feet Gunfighting - April 14-15

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  3. #77
    Member Array cerakoter's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sweatnbullets View Post
    This debate comes down to perspective and focus. Some people focus on being better inside of a game and that is all good when the training is kept in context. Some people are focused on fighting. Suarez Internationals focus is on winning gunfight so we have to break away from the square range dogma and focus on skills and pattern recognition that will make you the very best you can be when somebody is trying to kill you.

    When this is done.....score, ranking, embossed emblems, and coins mean nothing.........it is all about life and death.

    A fight is going to be what the fight is going to be. Your pet technique may not fit into that situation. That is why you need to look past the square range mentality where the bullets only travel in one direction, where an incorrectly ingrained pattern will not cost you your life.

    Who are you speaking to and on what points? I'm not seeing much debate on the topic at all, just promotion in 1/2 the thread. Which pet techniques do you use that you feel might not fit into a gunfight?

    Maybe you should define a "pet" technique? What makes it a pet instead of just "getting the job done tactically?" Does skipping the T in TRB make a TRB a pet technique if doing a TRB doesn't get shots on target faster, extending the gunfight?

  4. #78
    Member Array TravisABQ's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 10thmtn View Post
    And all that is absolutely fine - even laudable. Nothing wrong with learning how to do more than you will likely ever need to actually do.

    My only point was that the back-and-forth that has been going on in this thread is pretty much moot for situations most of us will likely (you hope) ever realistically face.
    I just love when somebody presumes to know what level of training I NEED for a future gunfight.

    It's right up there with somebody telling me I don't NEED magazines that hold more than 10 rounds, or a toilet that flushes properly.

    You fairly drip with condescension.

    FYI, a lot of us "low risk" folks don't buy expensive equipment, ammo, and take classes in gunfighting because we have vivid fantasies, but because we have vivid recollections of past events which we barely survived. Unlike you, when I have my next gunfight, I am not likely to have body armor, an APC, a pallet of magazines I can just use once, and throw away, or 20 friends to coordinate with.

  5. #79
    Member Array jrfctx's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TravisABQ View Post
    I just love when somebody presumes to know what level of training I NEED for a future gunfight.

    It's right up there with somebody telling me I don't NEED magazines that hold more than 10 rounds, or a toilet that flushes properly.

    You fairly drip with condescension.

    FYI, a lot of us "low risk" folks don't buy expensive equipment, ammo, and take classes in gunfighting because we have vivid fantasies, but because we have vivid recollections of past events which we barely survived. Unlike you, when I have my next gunfight, I am not likely to have body armor, an APC, a pallet of magazines I can just use once, and throw away, or 20 friends to coordinate with.

    Well said. For me I'll train however I want because I can.

  6. #80
    Senior Member Array Sweatnbullets's Avatar
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    Maybe you should define a "pet" technique? What makes it a pet instead of just "getting the job done tactically?"
    Rather than hijack this thread, I went a head and started another thread on that topic here.

  7. #81
    Senior Member Array 45ACP4ever's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TravisABQ View Post
    FYI, a lot of us "low risk" folks don't buy expensive equipment, ammo, and take classes in gunfighting because we have vivid fantasies, but because we have vivid recollections of past events which we barely survived. Unlike you, when I have my next gunfight, I am not likely to have body armor, an APC, a pallet of magazines I can just use once, and throw away, or 20 friends to coordinate with.
    I agree with this big time. Military training is fine and obviously works fairly well, but it doesn't fit what we (civilians) do either. If you think about it, neither your military training nor any of the rifle stuff that SI teaches is real likely to apply to stuff that would happen to us. Most of us that would end up in a gun fight would end up at arms length or a bit further with whatever weapon we wore that day, not at 100 yards with armor, a rifle and 6 mags. BUT, it COULD happen, so that's why I like to train for it. Likely? No. Want it to happen? Hell no. Train like it could happen? Hell yes.
    If I "over train" it can't hurt me, but if I don't train it could hurt me a whole lot.
    "It is your evil that will be sought by us. With every breath we will hunt them down. Each day we will spill their blood, until it rains down from the skies. Do not kill. Do not rape. Do not steal. These are principles that every man from every faith can embrace." -McManus twins Boondock Saints

  8. #82
    VIP Member Array Blackeagle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 45ACP4ever View Post
    If you think about it, neither your military training nor any of the rifle stuff that SI teaches is real likely to apply to stuff that would happen to us. Most of us that would end up in a gun fight would end up at arms length or a bit further with whatever weapon we wore that day
    We have an entire class dedicated to prevailing in just that sort of fight called Zero to Five Feet.
    Chris Upchurch - Suarez International Staff Instructor
    Upcoming SI Classes in South Carolina:
    Close Range Gunfighting - March 17-18
    Zero to Five Feet Gunfighting - April 14-15

  9. #83
    Member Array crabbys44's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cruel Hand Luke View Post
    If you travel about with a low cap gun maybe.Depends on whether you have a single stack gun or a hi cap. In a civilian close range gunfight the odds are just about zero that you are going to run your gun empty.

    There is however a pretty fair possibility that due to either getting a less than robust grip on the gun, the BG getting a hand in and fouling your draw or the possibility of getting it hung up in clothing as you fire that you may well end up with a failure to eject if you were not able to either gain better physical position on the bad guy, or gain distance before you attempt to draw.

    Any time we are in physical contact with the BG when the fight starts then there is a HIGH likelihood that the gun will get grabbed or the draw fouled. The way to fix this in the first place is to solve the hand to hand part first and work to better your position BEFORE you draw, but if you are still a "I carry a gun so I don't need to know how to fight" kind of guy then you are probably going to get ONE shot off and then have to clear a malfunction.

    The other issue is getting a less than robust grip on the pistol and "limp wristiing" it. What tends to happen is fighting your way through the Level 3 retention holster (if a cop)while trying to repel a contact distance physical attack tends to leave you with a less than ideal grip on the pistol when it finally clears the holster. The common result is "BANG" and then "CLICK" as the slide does not come back far enough to pick up the next round. Tap Rack fixes that. (Actually making sure you get a full firing grip on the pistol keeps the malfunction from even happening, but that is a subject for another time).

    Guns almost never malfunction on the range. Well let me change that . Modern, high quality guns that are kept relatively clean almost never malfunction on the range. Now add a live adversary at arms reach and the uncertainty of the REAL thing and suddenly things happen that are not normal. So no, I'm afraid that running the gun empty is not more likely than a failure to eject ...at least if you carry a hi cap pistol. If I have to run my Glock 34 empty and shoot some more, then something BIG is happening and it will be on all 3 networks, CNN, FOX News and probably wikipedia.

    But if you want to use " unload/reload" to fix a simple failure to eject just be aware that you are using the slower method that fixes a LESS likely problem.Tap/Rack can be done in about 1/4 the time and it solves empty chamber, failure to fire, and stovepipe, where unload reload is only needed to fix a failure to extract (or double feed) and since you are about as likely to see a unicorn as a double feed with a modern pistol, I'd err on the side of what the problem most likely is and make Tap/Rack my default response if the gun fails to go "bang" and the BG is less than 10 yards away.

    The closer we are, the less time we have. If I am 2 or 3 arms reach away, then it is now a hands on problem and the gun is now a club. If it is 3 steps or more away I cannot cover the distance fast enough and clearing the malfunction as I move to cover is more likely to get better results. If I am behind cover or at distance greater than 15 yards (against pistol armed assailants) then if you want to unload/reload, then that will PROBABLY work...due to the distance involved. But Tap/Rack is always going to be faster.
    Wow, I must have missed my unicorns then. I've had two failure to extracts with the M9. and I have seen enough double feeds in "modern, high quality guns that are kept relatively clean" (the "quality" part rules out the M9) to believe it is a valuable tool for your tactical toolbox.
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