Pattern Training -vs- Pattern Recognition Training

This is a discussion on Pattern Training -vs- Pattern Recognition Training within the Defensive Carry & Tactical Training forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; By Roger Phillips, Suarez International Specialist Instructor In the world of firearms training there is a huge emphasis towards pattern training. This started back in ...

Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast
Results 1 to 15 of 16

Thread: Pattern Training -vs- Pattern Recognition Training

  1. #1
    Senior Member Array Sweatnbullets's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2006
    Location
    Las Vegas
    Posts
    717

    Pattern Training -vs- Pattern Recognition Training

    By Roger Phillips, Suarez International Specialist Instructor

    In the world of firearms training there is a huge emphasis towards pattern training. This started back in the 1950’s and is still very much alive today in the vast majority of firearms training that is available. Pattern training makes sense if you are trying to force fit large groups of people into a specific system. But it makes very little sense if you are trying to make the individual fighter the very best that they can be. Pattern training is easy to teach. If everyone is taught the same pattern, there is no need to tailor anything to the individual. This allows for the material to be presented in a manner that just barely scratches the surface. If there is no depth…..there is no need to look deep or to have a deeper understanding. For the instructor this is the easy way out and It is also the easy way out for the student.

    Read more here.

  2. Remove Ads

  3. #2
    Member Array cerakoter's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2010
    Location
    Medford, OR.
    Posts
    27
    Roger,
    Having read that and coming from a thread that was teaching a "pattern" response to a non-functioning gun instead of a diagnostic, I fail to see how a "pet technique" is anything less than the OPs version of re-functioning the gun since it is based off a non-diagnostic approach.

    What am I missing here?

  4. #3
    Senior Member Array Sweatnbullets's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2006
    Location
    Las Vegas
    Posts
    717
    Quote Originally Posted by cerakoter View Post
    Roger,
    Having read that and coming from a thread that was teaching a "pattern" response to a non-functioning gun instead of a diagnostic, I fail to see how a "pet technique" is anything less than the OPs version of re-functioning the gun since it is based off a non-diagnostic approach.

    What am I missing here?
    In the last thread you were missing that one person strongly advocated never stowing a depleted or partially depleated magazine. He dumped it on the ground every time. That is a dangerous pattern inside of many circumstances.

    This thread you are missing the difference between a "pattern" and a properly ingrained immediate action drill. Gabe's "immediate action drill" is ingrained by being attached to common sense, logical thought, tested studies, and a good deal of training. There are many patterns taught in the square range training world that can get you killed if you are not thinking them through and dumping what is necessary to dump. Pattern training is for beginners........it is not an advanced application if you are fight focused.

  5. #4
    Member Array cerakoter's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2010
    Location
    Medford, OR.
    Posts
    27
    OK. In the other thread you did not specify who or what you were talking to when you mentioned pet techniques so, yes I did miss the issue you were speaking to being the non-retention reloading and not the OP.

    Sounds like the difference between "pattern training" and a "properly ingrained immediate action drill" is the amount of thought given to technique and who considers it common sense then?

  6. #5
    VIP Member Array Blackeagle's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2006
    Location
    Columbia, SC
    Posts
    2,147
    Quote Originally Posted by cerakoter View Post
    Sounds like the difference between "pattern training" and a "properly ingrained immediate action drill" is the amount of thought given to technique and who considers it common sense then?
    I would say that the difference is that in pattern training, you train to do it the same way every single time. In non-pattern training, you do train until you master a technique, but then you train to recognize situations where the technique is not appropriate. The immediate action drill may be ingrained until it is instinctive, but we also need to be able to override that instinct when it is inappropriate. Using the jammed gun as an impact weapon when the opponent is within arms reach, for instance
    Chris Upchurch - Suarez International Staff Instructor
    Upcoming SI Classes in South Carolina:
    Close Range Gunfighting - March 17-18
    Zero to Five Feet Gunfighting - April 14-15

  7. #6
    Member Array cerakoter's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2010
    Location
    Medford, OR.
    Posts
    27
    Blackeagle,
    That's my take on it.

    The OP from the previous thread was describing a "pattern technique" (re-functioning the gun) but Roger posted this thread in response to my question of what a "pet technique" (his words) was given that thought he was suggesting were the opposite of the OP's method.

    So the original OP's re-functioning method would seem to be a "pattern technique" unless one is willing to mix it up and not hold strictly to it as the OP was implying.

    Is it fair to say then that a "Pet Technique" = "Pattern Training" and is a bad thing unless you are willing to change up your technique based on the input given at the time?

    Would that not be the definition of a diagnostic approach to re-function the gun in this case?

    I trouble shoot for a living and I have a "bag of tricks" that I run down each time, but experience has taught me when to shortcut my methods, same as the omitting of a T in TRB when input is given during the TRB "Pattern-Method" or "pet-technique" that I'm executing until that input can be digested and acted upon.

  8. #7
    VIP Member Array Guantes's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2010
    Location
    Idaho
    Posts
    5,272
    In a word Flexibility.
    "I do what I do." Cpl 'coach' Bowden, "Southern Comfort".

  9. #8
    VIP Member Array Blackeagle's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2006
    Location
    Columbia, SC
    Posts
    2,147
    Quote Originally Posted by cerakoter View Post
    Would that not be the definition of a diagnostic approach to re-function the gun in this case?
    Diagnostic malfunction clearance is really the opposite of a pattern based technique. To borrow one of Roger's favorite words, there's a continuum here. At one end is a purely pattern based technique, where you do the same thing every time. At the opposite end is something like diagnostic malfunction clearance, where you have to spin through your OODA loop each time and make a decision about what you want to do. In the middle is something like non-diagnostic malfunction clearance, where we can train a given technique, but override that technique if necessary. Generally, I think the middle, what I call an overridable default, is the best place to be. However, not all problems have an overridable default solution. Sometimes you have to train patterns because nothing but an automatic response is going to be fast enough (blocking incoming knife attacks), and sometimes you have to train to make decisions on the fly because the correct action will vary so much depending on the situation (deciding which direction to get off the X).
    Chris Upchurch - Suarez International Staff Instructor
    Upcoming SI Classes in South Carolina:
    Close Range Gunfighting - March 17-18
    Zero to Five Feet Gunfighting - April 14-15

  10. #9
    Member Array cerakoter's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2010
    Location
    Medford, OR.
    Posts
    27
    In the middle is something like non-diagnostic malfunction clearance, where we can train a given technique, but override that technique if necessary.
    OK, that's what I'm calling "diagnostic" and can see where we were not on the same page now.

    In a motto.. "Adapt and Overcome!"

  11. #10
    Moderator
    Array buckeye .45's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2006
    Location
    Ohio
    Posts
    7,398
    Semper Gumby it is then...

    I think this is a valid point. In high stress situations you revert to your training. If your training is flawed, than your response can be flawed. The type of situations that cause high stress, are all unique, dynamic, fluid, and ever-changing. So your "trained response" may be the wrong one.

    It's all about the OODA loop, and making that process work for you to get ahead of the other guy's process.
    Fortes Fortuna Juvat

    Former, USMC 0311, OIF/OEF vet
    NRA Pistol/Rifle/Shotgun/Reloading Instructor, RSO, Ohio CHL Instructor

  12. #11
    Member Array cerakoter's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2010
    Location
    Medford, OR.
    Posts
    27
    It's all about the OODA loop, and making that process work for you to get ahead of the other guy's process.
    Amen.

  13. #12
    Senior Member Array Sweatnbullets's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2006
    Location
    Las Vegas
    Posts
    717
    In a word Flexibility.
    In a motto.. "Adapt and Overcome!"
    Semper Gumby it is then...
    That is what I am talking about.

    It is not just about being fluid.....it is about how to make sure that we are training to be fluid. We need to face the facts that the training of the recent past has been "technique focused" and not "concept focused." It is the conceptual approach to your training that allows you to be extremely well rounded and completely versatile. This fluidity will allow you to do much better inside of the ever changing dynamics of a fight. If we only work with niche techniques (or worse, pet techniques) that leaves us force fitting sub-optimal skillsets into situations where they are simply sub-optimal answers. A fluid conceptual approach is much better than being a slave to a particular technique.

    Let's list some pattern based training that can be very dangerous.

    Shoot two and assess
    Always use the sights
    Always create distance
    Always come back to close contact before you reholster
    Always do a quick check as soon as you think the adversary is down
    Always come back to the compressed ready as soon as the adversary is down
    Always come back into a compressed ready position that leaves you out there "chicken winging it"
    Always seek cover
    Tap/rack/bang
    Always move after you stop shooting
    Always transition to the second gun before you tap rack flip
    Always use "controlled movement" when moving
    Always stop when you want to shoot...."move-stop-shoot"
    Never close distance on an adversary
    Never move forward on an adversary
    Practice your after action drill as a pattern instead of attaching conscious thought and asking yourself questions that need to be answered
    Always slam your gun into the holster as soon you are done shooting
    Always come up to the line of sight
    Always come out to full extention
    Always use a default positon that does not take care of many situations
    Have only one retention position
    Take the gun away through a disarm technique....then give it back immediately so you can practice it again
    Never empty your revolver onto the range floor
    Always reload your revolver completely before you close the cylinder

    Guys, I am just getting warmed up here. I could write out a list ten times that long. We need to recognize the possible severity of the pattern based training problem. It is dangerous if you are actually training with "self defense" as your priority.

    I am well aware that some people will say that much of this is not taught as "always" or "never." But the perception of the student is stronger than the intentions of the instructor. If it is not hammered home again and again, to not fall into a pattern, all of the good intentions in the world add up to squat.

    It should be the instructors job to solidify the fact that a fight is an ever changing, fluid event, and that you should not be training in patterns. Everything that you do in your practice needs to be attached to the common sense of conscious thought.......which is reinforced inside of your training.

    Repetition can lead to patterns.....and patterns can get you killed. It has happened before and it can happen again!

    The Newhall Incident showed us the dangers of training in patterns. Yet, we still allow pattern base training to creep back into our training. Just because we fixed the whole pattern based revolver "loading and unloading" procedure does not mean that we are done. There are still plenty of very dangerous patterns being taught out there.

    BTW, hello Jim long time no see.

  14. #13
    Senior Member Array CR Williams's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2011
    Location
    Alabama
    Posts
    541
    Principles, not patterns, can we say?
    My cats support the Second Amendment.

    www.inshadowinlight.com

    "Oh, bother," said Pooh as he rocked another mag into the 556R...

  15. #14
    VIP Member Array glockman10mm's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2010
    Location
    Kentucky
    Posts
    7,855
    100 different Mcdojos, 100 different schools of thought. What was in vogue yesterday, is out today and so on.

  16. #15
    Senior Member Array CR Williams's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2011
    Location
    Alabama
    Posts
    541
    But principles and core concepts remain, don't they glockman10mm?
    My cats support the Second Amendment.

    www.inshadowinlight.com

    "Oh, bother," said Pooh as he rocked another mag into the 556R...

Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast

Links

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •  

Similar Threads

  1. How to make a holster pattern
    By Night Flight in forum Defensive Books, Video & References
    Replies: 3
    Last Post: July 19th, 2010, 03:38 PM
  2. Mossberg 500 -20 in. barrel /range & pattern?
    By Bart in forum Defensive Rifles & Shotgun Discussion
    Replies: 8
    Last Post: July 17th, 2009, 10:04 PM
  3. Ammo Burn Pattern
    By Datsun40146 in forum Defensive Ammunition & Ballistics
    Replies: 8
    Last Post: April 6th, 2009, 01:06 PM
  4. Best Camo Pattern and Where to Buy...
    By agentmel in forum Related Gear & Equipment
    Replies: 20
    Last Post: May 18th, 2008, 06:04 PM
  5. OC spray pattern
    By David in FL in forum Defensive Knives & Other Weapons
    Replies: 8
    Last Post: December 26th, 2007, 01:24 PM

Search tags for this page

mossberg 500 spray patern

,

pattern classification, training needs

,

pattern recognition training

,

pattern rocognitin training

,

pattern training

,

tactical pattern recognition

,

threat pattern recognition training

,

tread pattern training materials

Click on a term to search for related topics.