When Beating Your Friends Is More Important Than Defeating Your Enemies ~ WarriorTalk

When Beating Your Friends Is More Important Than Defeating Your Enemies ~ WarriorTalk

This is a discussion on When Beating Your Friends Is More Important Than Defeating Your Enemies ~ WarriorTalk within the Defensive Carry & Tactical Training forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; Last month at WarriorTalk the following article was posted which at the time I gave it no second thought...Other than that by my own direct ...

Results 1 to 10 of 10

Thread: When Beating Your Friends Is More Important Than Defeating Your Enemies ~ WarriorTalk

  1. #1
    VIP Member Array Janq's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2005
    Posts
    6,781

    When Beating Your Friends Is More Important Than Defeating Your Enemies ~ WarriorTalk

    Last month at WarriorTalk the following article was posted which at the time I gave it no second thought...Other than that by my own direct experiences with IDPA as a shooter and also as an SO, I very much agreed with the observations and bottom line position of the author.

    Following the now internet infamous Thalheimer (an IDPA 'master' level shooter) incident in Naples, FL; I figure this article is very much on point and presents excellent lessons to be learned as in relation to how one of us might possibly do better overall.

    ~~~

    01/02/2011
    When Beating Your Friends Is More Important Than Defeating Your Enemies

    By Alex Nieuwland, SI Staff Instructor

    Almost exactly ten years ago, a friend of mine invited me to my first IDPA match. I still remember the first stage I ever shot. It was called ďOfficer Down.Ē For string 1, I started out laying flat on my back with my legs pointed at the target, holding a hammer in my left hand, and a Glock 19 in my right hand. At the buzzer, I sat up and shot both targets twice. For string 2, the hammer and gun switched hands. The only matches I had previous experience with were much more sedate, and I thought IDPA was the greatest thing since sliced bread....

    ...What is there to win at an IDPA match? Nothing but a worthless trophy. All of the expensive prizes are given out by random drawing. The person who finished last has as much chance of winning them as the person who finished first. So by their actions, the cheater heater users are saying that beating their friends to win a worthless trophy is more important than defeating their enemies.

    But IDPA is just a game! Agreed. Any time you are shooting for score instead of shooting for blood itís just a game. Force-on-force training is a MUCH better way to train for winning your gunfights than shooting IDPA matches. Shooting IDPA matches, however, allows you to do something you canít do in force-on-force training: shoot real guns firing real bullets with real recoil and real malfunctions under time pressure with movement and with realistic accuracy demands. It allows you to determine if you have achieved the unconscious competence level with your gun handling skills. That is not a replacement for force-on-force training, but when you combine that with the skills learned from force-on-force training itís a combination thatís hard to beat.

    So IDPA is a great opportunity to bring out the guns you would actually use during a gunfight. If you donít, your actions show your ego is more important to you than defending yourself and your family from serious harm.

    But you carry a J-frame? Five shot .38 Special revolvers are perfectly legal in the Stock Service Revolver division. Bring it out! If youíre worried about finishing the entire course of fire with such a small ammo supply, might I suggest upgrading your carry gun? A Glock 26 is not much bigger and holds more than twice as many rounds.

    The full article can be found at; http://www.warriortalknews.com/2011/...r-enemies.html
    I have for some time now been telling folk who are my friends and relatives that I from the start viewed IDPA shooting as being for me nothing more than an opportunity to gain _additional_ trigger time with added benefit of simulated stress by way of simulations, finite time allowance and a people are watching me degree of simulated stress (nervousness).

    Within a month of shooting IDPA I stopped thinking of this as being 'real' because much of what I was asked or required to do at a match within given stages, I would not do real world...And what you're not allowed to do I would in fact think to do real world.
    Further I too noted that the guns AND ammunition (!) folks use were not often facsimiles of their own real world carry....If they even carried at all.

    This article though says it all.
    It's too bad that Sandy Thalheimer had not read it prior to Friday. : |

    - Janq

    P.S.
    Every gun I shoot in an IDPA match is literally the gun I walked in carrying off the street that day.
    Every gun I carry on the street has been run in an IDPA match, including the mags, ammo selection (always commercial not light reloads) and my manner of dress too as rather than a photog/fishing jacket 'cover' which real world I wouldn't be caught dead wearing.
    I am though NOT a master rated shooter in IDPA.
    Maybe I need more jacket. ; )
    "Killers who are not deterred by laws against murder are not going to be deterred by laws against guns. " - Robert A. Levy

    "A license to carry a concealed weapon does not make you a free-lance policeman." - Florida Div. of Licensing


  2. #2
    Member Array chivvalry's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2010
    Location
    Pittsburgh
    Posts
    454
    Just now saw the articles on Thalheimer... what a complete jackwagon. Under the circumstances described, robbery complete, no one harmed, no one under threat, BGs leaving the scene, what could have possessed him to RAM their car and then engage them in a shootout!?!? While armed with a 5 shot revolver!!! WITHOUT EVEN CALLING 911!!!

    Insane... totally and utterly insane.
    "I pledge allegiance to the Flag of the United States of America, and to the Republic for which it stands, one Nation indivisible, with liberty and justice for all."
    You are not paranoid if They are actually out to get you, however, They probably are not and you probably are.

  3. #3
    VIP Member
    Array RoadRunner71's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2009
    Location
    Michigan
    Posts
    6,463
    Absolutely right. Competition is a great way to simulate stress, but is usually a terrible way to train in tactics.

    I'll keep competing though. I love making loud noises and pretty holes in paper. FOF is a whole different subject. Just realize which is which and learn the lessons each can offer.
    If you have never broken your gun or bled on your gun in training, you're doing it wrong!
    Train hard, live easy.

  4. #4
    Member Array AlexN's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2010
    Location
    Columbia, SC
    Posts
    16
    Quote Originally Posted by Janq View Post
    Following the now internet infamous Thalheimer (an IDPA 'master' level shooter) incident in Naples, FL; I figure this article is very much on point and presents excellent lessons to be learned as in relation to how one of us might possibly do better overall.
    Yes, Mr. Thalheimer made the point VERY well for me.

    Every gun I shoot in an IDPA match is literally the gun I walked in carrying off the street that day.
    Every gun I carry on the street has been run in an IDPA match, including the mags, ammo selection (always commercial not light reloads)
    Good. I wish everyone at IDPA would do that because my ultimate goal as an instructor is to have as many highly dangerous people, who are on my side, out there as possible.
    Alex Nieuwland - Suarez International Staff Instructor
    Upcoming SI Classes in South Carolina:
    Introduction to Point Shooting - February 26
    Defensive Pistol Skills - March 5-6
    Shotgun Gunfighting - March 26-27
    Point Shooting Gunfight Skills - April 2-3

  5. #5
    Member Array AlexN's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2010
    Location
    Columbia, SC
    Posts
    16
    Quote Originally Posted by RoadRunner71 View Post
    I'll keep competing though. I love making loud noises and pretty holes in paper.
    I encourage people to come out and try their gear in competition. Making loud noises and pretty holes is just plain FUN, and hanging out with other gun people makes it even better. I just encourage them to do it with their carry gear instead of their cheater heaters so they get the maximum defensive bang for their ammo bucks.
    Alex Nieuwland - Suarez International Staff Instructor
    Upcoming SI Classes in South Carolina:
    Introduction to Point Shooting - February 26
    Defensive Pistol Skills - March 5-6
    Shotgun Gunfighting - March 26-27
    Point Shooting Gunfight Skills - April 2-3

  6. #6
    Member Array HeadHunter's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2008
    Location
    Hotel Carlton
    Posts
    312
    Shooting with a snub is fun.
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_yT2jHHKnG4

    I shot the Nationals last year with a snub.

  7. #7
    Moderator
    Array gasmitty's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2007
    Location
    Gilbert, AZ
    Posts
    11,205
    Based on maybe 10 runs at Rio Salado's "Tuesday Night Steel" I know I will never make "master" level in my lifetime. But dang it all... I've winnowed out bad gear, revealed gun problems that never happened when I was punching paper, and suffered only a level of personal embarrassment when I jerked a trigger or fumbled a speed reload that resulted in penalty points being tacked onto my score.

    I never lose sight of the fact that these informal matches take place on a square range with lead only going in one direction. But I shoot until I've either knocked down all the plates or run out of ammo... I won't quit because of a "foot fault." I can't speak for the other shooters, but for me it's a field laboratory and not a game. Master Class will always elude me, but it's light years ahead of shooting paper targets at a fixed distance from the same firing point at the range.
    Smitty
    NRA Endowment Member
    NROI Chief Range Officer

  8. #8
    Senior Moderator
    Array limatunes's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    Iowa
    Posts
    4,246
    My .02 for what it's worth (which is probably less than .02)... Even if it is a game and not the best means of training.. it is a heck of a lot better than just standing statically in a shooting lane and firing one round after another on a static while you stand firm, putting down your gun on a bench to reload because your rang won't allow you to draw from the holster or do speed or tactical reloads.

    You can try out your gear. You can draw from concealment. You can shoot at multiple targets, some of which are moving and some of which are partially hidden and many other scenarios that test your limits and knowledge of using a handgun in a more realistic manner than just standing on a range.

    I have heard people discourage new shooters from shooting IDPA because "it's a game" and "it's a waste of time" and "it's not good training," and a million other excuses... but let me tell you... give me a choice between someone who's shot just 2 or 3 IDPA matches against someone who has just done static target shooting on a traditional range to back me up in a gunfight and I'm probably going to pick the guy with IDPA experience.

    I choose to view it as a tool.. you take away what you can from it and you have fun with the rest and you continue your training with other means like FOF or other formal trainings and keep your skills practiced and work out kinks with your gear and your gun through shoots like IDPA.

    Thankfully, not all match directors or stage diagrams are the same and some try very hard to make it more realistic within the rules... yeah, there are always those goofy matches that make no sense whatsoever but it keeps you on your toes for sure.

    I'll always advocate IDPA.. and can't wait to start shooting it again this spring.

  9. #9
    Senior Member Array Beans's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2006
    Location
    AZ Border Territory,
    Posts
    1,002
    For me IDPA is an excise in gun handling not tactics, reloading, shooting while moving, watching the front sight, trigger control, muzzle control. It is also a great way to spend a Saturday morning and sure beats, IMHO, bullseye shooting.

    In the 1970's I shot PPC (Practical Police Course) which also had nothing to do with tactics, but also taught trigger control and sight picture/alignment.

  10. #10
    Member Array AlexN's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2010
    Location
    Columbia, SC
    Posts
    16
    Quote Originally Posted by HeadHunter View Post
    Shooting with a snub is fun.
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_yT2jHHKnG4

    I shot the Nationals last year with a snub.
    Bravo! Keep up the good work.
    Alex Nieuwland - Suarez International Staff Instructor
    Upcoming SI Classes in South Carolina:
    Introduction to Point Shooting - February 26
    Defensive Pistol Skills - March 5-6
    Shotgun Gunfighting - March 26-27
    Point Shooting Gunfight Skills - April 2-3

Sponsored Links

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •  

Similar Threads

  1. those interested in defeating texas gun control
    By HALLOWEEN Z in forum The Second Amendment & Gun Legislation Discussion
    Replies: 12
    Last Post: January 24th, 2010, 03:36 PM
  2. Public Enemies
    By zacii in forum Off Topic & Humor Discussion
    Replies: 1
    Last Post: July 18th, 2009, 02:12 PM
  3. Enemies Foreign and Domestic
    By Free American in forum Defensive Books, Video & References
    Replies: 7
    Last Post: June 10th, 2007, 08:12 AM
  4. Taken from warriortalk forum...intruder armed with pit bull!
    By paramedic70002 in forum In the News: The Good, the Bad and the Ugly
    Replies: 19
    Last Post: February 8th, 2007, 12:00 PM

Search tags for this page

defeating your enemies

,

friends are more important

,

glock 26 active shooter

,

glock 26 idpa

,

glock 26 idpa master

,

glock 26 naples fl

,

glock 26 warriortalk

,
how to master glock 26
,

idpa master glock 26

,

idpa naples

,

idpa naples fl

,

warriortalk

Click on a term to search for related topics.