The Layman's Primer to Movement in Gunfights - Page 2

The Layman's Primer to Movement in Gunfights

This is a discussion on The Layman's Primer to Movement in Gunfights within the Defensive Carry & Tactical Training forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; I am fascinated by the concept of how one could create a whole bunch of space in a narrow stairwell, elevator or hallway. Any treatises ...

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  1. #16
    Senior Member Array Chad Rogers's Avatar
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    I am fascinated by the concept of how one could create a whole bunch of space in a narrow stairwell, elevator or hallway. Any treatises on this topic will be well received. It is hard for me to get around the notion that no matter what upwards, downwards, or sideways movement one makes, the adversary has a very minimal amount of traversing and elevation/depression to effect.


  2. #17
    VIP Member Array Guantes's Avatar
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    Most things don't fit well into an always or never mindset.

    The amount of correction required is effected by a number of things, space being one of them.

    Any correction required by the adversary, is better than none.

    I see the goal as buying a small window of time, with a lower probability of taking hits, to attempt termination of the threat.
    "I do what I do." Cpl 'coach' Bowden, "Southern Comfort".

  3. #18
    VIP Member Array glockman10mm's Avatar
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    The main goal is to survive. There is no way to guarentee that one will not take a hit, or even multiple hits. But, the survivability of those hits is porportional to amount of vital target areas you make it easy for the BG to easily target.
    By moving in such a way that you place heavy bone between the bullet and your boiler room, or by making that target twice as small, by blading the body and using angles are very important to increasing your survivability.

    It's kind of like a knife fight; you will get cut, the question is how you control the damage. You may have to sacrifice an arm or leg to the bullet, or even the side of the torso, to prevent a center mass hit on your body. It's ugly to think about, but this is reality.

    Sometimes distance is created by actually closing in on the BG.

    Perhaps Peter Capstick, a noted and famous big game hunter of the African continent sumerised the idea long ago, whe asked by a client during a lion hunt what he should do if he doesn't kill the lion before it attacks him.
    To this Mr. Capstick said" Feed the lion willingly your arms and legs, and hope you don't run out of appendages before we get it shot off of you".

    Gettin the idea?

  4. #19
    Senior Member Array Chad Rogers's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Guantes View Post
    Most things don't fit well into an always or never mindset.

    The amount of correction required is effected by a number of things, space being one of them.

    Any correction required by the adversary, is better than none.

    I see the goal as buying a small window of time, with a lower probability of taking hits, to attempt termination of the threat.
    No argument there. I'm just curious to see the dynamic upwards/downwards and sideways movement officers can make while going down a hallway to the apartment door/room at the end that the fugitive is expected to be behind.

    Any links to actual stories by survivors of extremely confining spaces shootout victories would be much appreciated. I always like to see actual stories that support the theory whenever I can get my hands on them.

  5. #20
    VIP Member Array Guantes's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chad Rogers
    No argument there. I'm just curious to see the dynamic upwards/downwards and sideways movement officers can make while going down a hallway to the apartment door/room at the end that the fugitive is expected to be behind.
    I'm not sure I'm following you. Are you talking about preconfrontational approach movement or movement when confronted?
    As far as movement when confronted in a narrow space, both vertical movement and blading (in quartata (sp)) are recognized as possibilities.

    I imagine there are some actual incidents of such usage, but I don't have any at my fingertips.
    "I do what I do." Cpl 'coach' Bowden, "Southern Comfort".

  6. #21
    Senior Member Array Luis50's Avatar
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    I worked on examples A,B and H this morning at the range. It going to be fun as I develope more speed and accuracy.

    I'm thankful to be blessed with good foot speed, hand speed and coordination but I know this can be learned by anyone.
    Luis

    "Everybody's got a plan, 'til they get hit".

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  7. #22
    Senior Member Array DaveJay's Avatar
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    Its threads like this that keep me coming back for more...

    Thanks to all who have contributed...I am better prepared today than I was yesterday because of this thread...

    More stuff to practice!!!
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  8. #23
    Member Array mfcmb's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chad Rogers View Post
    I am fascinated by the concept of how one could create a whole bunch of space in a narrow stairwell, elevator or hallway. Any treatises on this topic will be well received.
    A beginner will make very coarse movements, but with practice you can make smaller and smaller movements that still get you off the line of attack. In Aikido you are taught to increase your skills through practice until you can sidestep an attack "by the thinness of a sheet of paper" (that phrase is to guide your mindset, not necessarily to be physically achievable). Also in Aikido you are taught that how you guide the attacker's mind is more important than the actual physical move; so if you work the situation skillfully you can give the impression of having left the attacker's target zone even though you haven't moved very far. For example, sometimes you can just leaned out of the attacker's field of focus without actually moving your feet. Remember that at any given moment your attacker will have a form of tunnel vision too, and if you can move out of that tunnel you've effectively disappeared until he/she reorients him/herself (during which fraction of a second you're making your next move). It takes a lot of practice to be able to do this skillfully in tight spaces, but it comes with time.
    In the heat of the moment, what matters is what your body knows -- not what your mind knows.

  9. #24
    Senior Member Array Chad Rogers's Avatar
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    These would be interesting force on force scenarios to play out in confined spaces. My general sense is that there will be a lot of mutual "kills."

    Anyway, the whole confined spaces paradigm takes the focus off the excellent work of the original post. My bad.

  10. #25
    Senior Member Array CR Williams's Avatar
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    You don't need to create a 'lot' of space, Chad. (I guess we need to agree on some definition of how much a 'lot' is now.) You just need to get out of the line of the shot. If you think of how narrow that line is, then you begin to see that there's more space to work with than people think at first. It's true that the attacker may only have to make a small adjustment, but the key is that they have to adjust, and they will tend to adjust to the center of where you have moved to instead of being content to just nick an 'edge' somewhere. The time and space that adjustment creates is what you have to work with to either counterattack or escape. And you can make another movement after the first one to create another adjustment space if you still need to. Not perfect by any means, but the best we've got so far.

    There is a video somewhere of an actual crazy guy shooting at a lawyer outside a courtroom building. There was some famous-person trial going on at the time, so a camera was there to show it. The target was going up and down and from side to side behind a small tree, maybe five or six inches in trunk diameter, as the shooter was trying to hit him with a revolver. The victim was hit twice, I believe, but not fatally, and dodge the rest of the rounds by his movement. The shooter was pumping the revolver in and out as he shot trying to center on the target when the target moved. The entire range of movement could have easily fit an apartment hallway. I have no idea what keywords to use to look the actual video up now or I'd post a link.
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  11. #26
    VIP Member Array Guantes's Avatar
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    As good as it is, that is one of the shortcomings the average FoF of today. There is no way, save referees, to have the effects of hits factored into the exercise and register their effect on the outcome.
    "I do what I do." Cpl 'coach' Bowden, "Southern Comfort".

  12. #27
    VIP Member Array JDE101's Avatar
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    Thanks for the post and the pdf link, Guantes. This is a very informative article and subsequent discussion. Really appreciated.
    Live to ride, ride to live. Harley Road King And keep a .45 handy Kimber Custom TLE II

  13. #28
    Senior Member Array Chad Rogers's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CR Williams View Post
    There is a video somewhere of an actual crazy guy shooting at a lawyer outside a courtroom building.
    Now we are moving into the realm of there having been some cover (a tree as I recall) that the lawyer was working with. That's a huge plus that a narrow hallway, stairwell or elevator likely does not offer.

  14. #29
    Member Array Cruel Hand Luke's Avatar
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    But moving in a hallway or elevator is better than just standing there and playing "Rock 'em Sock 'em Robots"with bullets.

    And remember the plan is not to just move....but to move to cause him to miss you initially (or at least to only hit you peripherally and not hit you in the heart or the brain stem) and then shoot the stuffing out of him before he can reorient to you and catch up....The movement is only the first part of the equation.
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