Combat Accuracy - Page 2

Combat Accuracy

This is a discussion on Combat Accuracy within the Defensive Carry & Tactical Training forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; I once had an Instructor come to my facility to do some training on my range....(I DO NOT do this any longer) as I watched ...

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  1. #16
    Sponsor Array DCJS Instructor's Avatar
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    I once had an Instructor come to my facility to do some training on my range....(I DO NOT do this any longer) as I watched the class I was horrified....One of the Instructors shot about 20 rounds on a piece of steel 10 yards away and had about 5 hits? It was a point shooting class.

    The safety violations were too many to count. It was a true shame.

    Don't get me wrong I am in favor of point shooting...However this was..........never mind.

    And believe it or not people paid for that class...and thought it was GREAT....."You don't know what you don't know"

    I am blessed that I have so much contract work that I do not need to run open enrollment training. However if you’re going to do it….do it right.


  2. #17
    Senior Member Array Sweatnbullets's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Buski View Post
    I didn't see any review of the "hits" on the target, on the video. What is the validity of "outstanding combat accurate" hits, if there is no review of the target?

    Or, one is to assume he hit a portion of the target; somewhere, by seeing the impact on the sand behind?

    That whole target he's using, "anyhit" is outstanding combat accuracy?

    I don't understand what your trying to say & what Bill Mo is posting; Anyhit is exceptable, on a full E-type silhoutte target? That's the standard, in combat? Because one is innately afraid to be hit themselves and this fear will cause me to sometimes miss &/or be unable to hit a specific point.

    Or, I don't understand, because I'm untrained. Though, I would understand if I became trained by paying for and attending a Suarez International class.

    Good shooting
    Feel free to keep doing what you are doing......I will keep doing what I am doing.

    As stated in the article "combat accuracy all comes dow to who you want to believe." I will always side with the guys that have the very most experience. Feel free to believe whoever you want to believe.

  3. #18
    Senior Member Array Sweatnbullets's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DCJS Instructor View Post
    I once had an Instructor come to my facility to do some training on my range....(I DO NOT do this any longer) as I watched the class I was horrified....One of the Instructors shot about 20 rounds on a piece of steel 10 yards away and had about 5 hits? It was a point shooting class.

    The safety violations were too many to count. It was a true shame.

    Don't get me wrong I am in favor of point shooting...However this was..........never mind.

    And believe it or not people paid for that class...and thought it was GREAT....."You don't know what you don't know"

    I am blessed that I have so much contract work that I do not need to run open enrollment training. However if you’re going to do it….do it right.
    Do it right? And who is the the authority on what is right and what is wrong. Do we follow a system that was born out of competition or do we follow a system that was born out of combat. What the old timers did was born out of combat.

    When we look at what the very best gunfighters that have ever live did, we all need to ask ourselves the question "Who am I to disregaurd experience like THAT?" We need to ask ourselves "how arrogant would I have to be to disreguard experience like THAT?

  4. #19
    VIP Member Array glockman10mm's Avatar
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    It's all about making a dollar. It's all easy until the lead is flying in both directions. Learning basics like moving, and cover are good, but I can speak from personal experience, when tshtf, it doesn't take spending a bunch of $$ to make your ass move and find cover.

    As far as combat shooting, now there's an interesting thing. No matter how much money you throw at some so called combat shooting school, when the bullets come in your direction, the human instinct to protect themselves kicks in. You will want to get yourself out of harms way. You may even forget you are armed!

    Any training that does not work with body minimizing techniques, protecting the center line while returning fire, in the event cover is not available, is a waste of money. The proper use of aimed fire is preferred over the point shooting when it's feasible, however, in an extreme close encounter, point shooting may be the best and fastest option.
    bmcgilvray likes this.
    Ignorance is a long way from stupid, but left unchecked, can get there real fast.

  5. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by Buski View Post
    What I am certain of is, I am not going to do this.


    YouTube - Roger Phillips Fight Focused Concepts + Suarez International

    Good shooting

    "You might even shoot yourself"

    Lynyrd Skynyrd "Saturday Night Special"


    That video is just plain dumb. I'm about to leave to go out to our place to mow. There's plenty of room there to do that kind of shooting. I could take along a hi-cap pistol, a pile of ammo, and and someone to video me as I run around like a ninny, spraying bullets at a paper target. It would be no great accomplishment and would look about as stupid as I'm a 53 year old geezer who doesn't practice such silliness. Gymnastics and a flurry of activity doesn't equate to skill with a firearm.

    After finishing the mowing, instead of running around like a chicken with my head cut off, I'll stand still and shoot some spinning discs and paper targets with handguns in .22, 38, and .45. May shoot some pears off the prickly pear cactus at various unknown distances. May shoot at targets on the side of the hill with a rifle or two. When I'm done I'll call it good and come home. I'm certainly not the greatest shot who ever walked the earth but that video is a foolish insult to anyone who is trying to learn.
    OD* likes this.
    Charter Member of the DC .41 LC Society "Get heeled! No really"

    “No possible rapidity of fire can atone for habitual carelessness of aim with the first shot.”

    Theodore Roosevelt, The Wilderness Hunter, 1893

  6. #21
    VIP Member Array glockman10mm's Avatar
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    The things people will do to make a buck. Sad thing is alot of good people who don't know the difference will buy into this crap. I agree with you bmcgilvray, that is nothing but a bad scene from a b rated action flick from the 1970s.
    OD* likes this.
    Ignorance is a long way from stupid, but left unchecked, can get there real fast.

  7. #22
    VIP Member Array Harryball's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by glockman10mm View Post
    It's all about making a dollar. It's all easy until the lead is flying in both directions. Learning basics like moving, and cover are good, but I can speak from personal experience, when tshtf, it doesn't take spending a bunch of $$ to make your ass move and find cover.

    As far as combat shooting, now there's an interesting thing. No matter how much money you throw at some so called combat shooting school, when the bullets come in your direction, the human instinct to protect themselves kicks in. You will want to get yourself out of harms way. You may even forget you are armed!

    Any training that does not work with body minimizing techniques, protecting the center line while returning fire, in the event cover is not available, is a waste of money. The proper use of aimed fire is preferred over the point shooting when it's feasible, however, in an extreme close encounter, point shooting may be the best and fastest option.
    So in your opinion then, what type of training should be done. I agree the video was a bit over the top. However, based on what you and bmc have indicated, just plinken around the back forty should work. IMO, we should train to what are bodies will do under stress.
    Don"t let stupid be your skill set....

    Never be ashamed of a scar. It simply means, that you were stronger than whatever tried to hurt you......

  8. #23
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    Roger is my training inspiration and the reason why I train the way I do. He opened my eyes to a new way of training and preparing and I feel the firearm industry is blessed to have someone like him. I am no Roger Phillips but I train hard and get better every day

    Force on force training just re-enforces his theory of getting off the X first. All the stand still target gurus got knocked on their butts before they could get more than a shot off.... some got none..... the guys who moved didn't and were able to get shots off. Imagine that.

    before you call it stupid go take a Force on Force class with airsoft and put your money where your mouth is when it comes to aimed target shooting.

    I may look stupid to you too too.. but I get hits on target and I am moving like a banshee and harder to hit....

    http://youtu.be/-R5asyQt08o

    and

    http://youtu.be/rTAV178rz1c

    and I show my hits on target

    here is me with my hicap being a ninny

    http://youtu.be/18oetOpeajc

    and again

    http://youtu.be/SgZ9o25c9_o

    Oh wait, thats not a hicap

  9. #24
    VIP Member Array glockman10mm's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Harryball View Post
    So in your opinion then, what type of training should be done. I agree the video was a bit over the top. However, based on what you and bmc have indicated, just plinken around the back forty should work. IMO, we should train to what are bodies will do under stress.
    For one thing, training should be based on what YOU can expect realistically in the world YOU live in. True, its a fact that we must expect the unexpected, and try to be as prepared as possible, thaqt I will not disagree on. What I take issue with is with emphasis training on run and gun or commando style training that gets a little far fetched from what people will normally encounter. The chances of Joe Public shooting it out with the Crips or Bloods or engaging terroristic threats with AR 15s is a little far fetched.

    By concentrating on things that are more likely encountered in your training routine is simple, relatively inexpensive, and allows for a little creativity, or thinking outside the box on the part of the individual. Learning to draw smoothly from different positions, and scenario training that you create that coincides with your daily routine. For example, if you frequent shopping centers , set up a scenario where you are held up at knife point, using a card board figure as the bad guy. Try doing some wind sprints to get your heart rate up to simulate addrenelin. How easy is it for you to access your weapon under cover garments? Would you have time? Try a little close quarters instictive shooting at close quarters vs aimed fire. Would it be quicker if you pocket carried and had your hand on the gun? What about actually shooting through and old jacket or sweater pocket? Can you shoot with the weak hand? Can you reload and chamber with one hand?

    Do you do alot of driving? How quickly can you access your weapon while behind the wheel? This is easy to practice, and doesnt cost a dime.
    Work late at night? Try a little night shooting.
    What if you are injured or for some reason hit the floor? Try drawing and shooting from different positions.
    What if you are in the mall or other place and a gunman begins shooting people? Well if Superman doesnt show up to save the day, and you feel you must intervene, create a scenario with cardboard humanoid targets and practice, shooting from behind cover at different distance, difficult angles. Make it interesting and place a few " innocents" around the threat, and work it out.

    What if you are attacked in a manner that leaves no reaction time, such as sucker punched, pushed or whatever? Find a friens and do a little force on force training and see what works and what doesnt.

    I could go on and on. After you master the things that are things that are most likely encountered in your own world, then you will be ready for advanced commando style tactics.

    Or, you could join us here in the "back forty" and have some real fun, instead of worrying about zombies, terrorists, and black clad ninjafied commandos all the time and enjoy your guns without all the pressure.
    bmcgilvray likes this.
    Ignorance is a long way from stupid, but left unchecked, can get there real fast.

  10. #25
    Distinguished Member Array Bill MO's Avatar
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    I want to say up front I have never been in a gunfight, never looked down the barrel of a gun or seen the edge of a knife in my face for real. But have done so in FOF where the gun was an airsoft and the knife was a trainer. And the type of shooting in the article and you saw on the video proved to get me out of the situations most of the time on top. I have also seen those who trained and believed in get on the sights with every shot, go thru a days training and say "I never once remember seeing my sights". So I ask is it better to train like you will fight or train sighted fired and then never use it? (in most fights) I posted the article, because I believe in it. For those who see it as this Quote;

    "The things people will do to make a buck. Sad thing is alot of good people who don't know the difference will buy into this crap. I agree with you bmcgilvray, that is nothing but a bad scene from a b rated action flick from the 1970s."

    I say do your thing and I REALLY do hope it works for you different than what I seen happening in FOF. An open mind will show one more of what one does not know than one that is closed.

    Yes I train and practice what was in the article and on the video, because as of yet I have seen nothing else that will come close to what this training will do in a gunfight. But my mind is still open to new ideas and if they prove to work better I will change. For now I will move off the X and point shoot getting to the sights as time and distance require and be happy with combat accuracy.
    It's gotta be who you are, not a hobby. reinman45

    "Is this persons bad behavior worth me having to kill them over?" Guantes

  11. #26
    VIP Member Array glockman10mm's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bill MO View Post
    I want to say up front I have never been in a gunfight, never looked down the barrel of a gun or seen the edge of a knife in my face for real. But have done so in FOF where the gun was an airsoft and the knife was a trainer. And the type of shooting in the article and you saw on the video proved to get me out of the situations most of the time on top. I have also seen those who trained and believed in get on the sights with every shot, go thru a days training and say "I never once remember seeing my sights". So I ask is it better to train like you will fight or train sighted fired and then never use it? (in most fights) I posted the article, because I believe in it. For those who see it as this Quote;

    "The things people will do to make a buck. Sad thing is alot of good people who don't know the difference will buy into this crap. I agree with you bmcgilvray, that is nothing but a bad scene from a b rated action flick from the 1970s."

    I say do your thing and I REALLY do hope it works for you different than what I seen happening in FOF. An open mind will show one more of what one does not know than one that is closed.

    Yes I train and practice what was in the article and on the video, because as of yet I have seen nothing else that will come close to what this training will do in a gunfight. But my mind is still open to new ideas and if they prove to work better I will change. For now I will move off the X and point shoot getting to the sights as time and distance require and be happy with combat accuracy.
    Look, probably should not say everything that I think, and did not really mean to offend anyone. If anything by now I should know that this stuff is like everything else, religion, politics, ect....some follow the Pope, others follow the Moonies, and still some follow Jim Jones. Do what you like, and I hope it works for you.

    Some of the issues I have with the video are, where are the missed shots going? You will be accountable for them.
    I am tired of the now overused term, "get off the X". Does that mean just move? Move and run around flinging shots at the target? Or, could it actually be more? Body minimizing techniques, or taking your body out of the direct line of fire by dropping down while firing or angulation? All I have seen taught and demonstrated are lateral movement, to the left or right.

    When confronted in a fight or flight situation, you will do one or the other. And you will do either one of them well, but not both. Running away like a decapitated chicken flinging bullets as you go is not what you will do. Why? because at that moment, you begin to lose fine motor skill. Your fingers begin to fail you, and simple steps like finding your weapon, unholstering, and even remotely aquiring the target while running away is much more difficult. The blood leaves your extremitys, ie..arms and legs and begins to gather around the center of the body to protect major organs. If you have heard anyone say their legs got weak in a stressful situation, this is why. Same thing with the arms, especially fingers. Your eyes will narrow their focus, resulting in tunnel vision.

    You can train your body to act on the situation instead of react. That is what proper training is for, and its done by a process of repetition and mindset. You can be successful fleeing. You can be successful fighting. Either one but not both.
    Ignorance is a long way from stupid, but left unchecked, can get there real fast.

  12. #27
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    Bill,

    "You don't know what you don't know!

    I am sure you think you are prepared.....However (1) small problem the target is not moving or is not trying to shoot or stab you.
    You were on the right path with FOF instruction...however sadly I have seen it done correctly very few times.

    Shoot me an e-mail at ccjatraining@gmail.com I will allow you to take a FREE "Open Enrollment" Firearms course. All I ask in return is an AAR of the training, the good, the bad, the ugly.

    Let me know your thoughts.

    P.S. The reason I no longer post courses on this forum is I am so busy training Military, Govt. Contractors and Law Enforcement, We hold very few “Open Enrollment courses. However have no fear we are open to civilian’s again in July of this year.

    “What we teach is A way to do things…. not THE way”

    God forbid one day you are involved in a shooting….You survive and must go to court because right, wrong or indifferent you shot someone…..Who or what will you show the court to justify your actions……

    I am not Instructor or technique bashing ……You and You alone will be held accountable for your actions. Who or what do you want to represent you when that time comes.

    Tom Perroni

  13. #28
    Senior Member Array Sweatnbullets's Avatar
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    Training with Suarez International is definitely not for those that want to remain mediocre. We do not focus on target shooting fruit out of a tree, we focus on being able to fight. We do not stop at the intermediate levels that Glock man seems to love so much......we push things as far as we can push them. There are plenty of places to train for fruit shooting and "mediocre intermediate skill sets only"........but Suarez International is not one of those places. This is not something that we are ashamed of. It is something that we are proud of.

    For every closed minded "you do not know what you do not know" person that attacks what we do on a gun forum, there are ten paying students that have decided to not remain mediocre. We do not debate to try to change the closed minded that do not know what they do not know.....we debate to embrace the open minded and to state our case on our common sense.

    The video was made to get right in the face of the established, dogmatic, mediocre, status quo. That is what it is designed to do. What you see in the video is something that came straight out of hundreds of force on force courses. This is how people act when they are being shot at and are fighting for their lives. The methods that you see in the video have been refined by thousands of students over a nearly six year period. Unlike the status quo, Suarez International has the stones to allow the students/fighters to progress the curriculum past the egotistical dogma of the recent past. We learn from every person that we train with.

    When the best of the best come to train with you and we make it clear that we are looking to advance the art as far as we can take it, the information, knowledge, and skill sets are taken to a level beyond what the dogmatic, guru worshippers of the recent past were ever able to accomplish. That simply is what it is. When you see a skill set with as much input and maturity as the one in the video and you dismiss it out of hand, you may want to examine the closed mindedness involved with those decisions.

    Being closed minded is a curse........the curse of those that can not progress.

    I have no concerns with proving anything to anyone on the internet. That is because I prove it nearly every weekend to my students while training. It is not about what I can do it is about what I can teach my students to do. And my students know that I can teach them to fight.

    Glockman, I missed one shot in those drills. It was at ten yards moving to the 5:00, Whether you believe me or not does not matter since I prove it nearly every weekend inside of my courses. Not only can I do it......I can teach it in just two days.

    You guys are welcome to be as mediocre as you like.......that is not the way that Suarez International rolls.

  14. #29
    Senior Member Array Sweatnbullets's Avatar
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    Keep it Simple Stupid

    We have all heard this over and over again, but what does it actually mean? Many believe that it means “keep it simple or you are stupid.” The true meaning is “keep it as simple as it needs to be, but no simpler.”

    In the world of the gun its true meaning has been contorted by those that teach a certain system or methodology. These instructors taught a “one size fits all” methodology that is geared to a “lowest common denominator” mindset, inside of a “square range” mentality. They taught one stance, one grip, one means of sighting the gun, one draw stroke, and one form of retention shooting.

    Back in 2000, instructors were beginning to step outside of this tight little box. There began an age of enlightenment. Terms such as “integration” “continuum” “matrix” and “progression” would send all of the old guard guru worshipers into a frenzied state, throwing KISS rule haymakers at every new concept that they did not understand. It is this lack of understanding that is the crux of the problem…..not the fluid concepts.

    This new breed of instructors were taking what they knew and testing it in force on force (FOF.) To many of these instructors, the limitations of their past training became very apparent. It became very obvious that the past training had kept things much too simple. It was so simple, that it did not work against a thinking, breathing, resisting, and aggressive adversary. Remember, “keep it as simple as it needs to be, but no simpler.” If the past KISS training failed miserably inside of properly structured FOF, it is very apparent that this contorted KISS ideology was the main factor in this failure.

    “The More You Sweat in Training, the Less You Bleed in Combat”

    Simply said, “Put in the work!”

    So, what is the work that we need to put in? Go out and learn the fundamentals. As soon as you have safety down, the draw stroke down, and you can keep the gun running and hitting……you need to take these basics into professionally structured FOF. Here is where you find out that the fundamentals are nowhere near good enough. Here is where you find out that you need to sweat a hell of a lot more, so that you do not bleed so much. Here is where you find out that you need to be more “well rounded” and versatile. Here is where you find out that you need to be able to work at the subconscious level…..because that conscious level KISS training fell flat on it face.

    The epiphany is complete. You now understand that keeping it simple in training does not equate to doing well in a confrontation. “Gun fighting is a thinking mans game.” The only way for you to keep it simple inside of a confrontation is by putting in the work while training. You need to work with solid natural/instinctive concepts…..ones that can be accessed by the caveman brain at the subconscious level. This breaks us away from that “one size fits all” technique based training and leads us into much more natural and fluid concepts. These fluid concepts begin to cover a much larger portion of the fight continuum. Even though they cover much more ground that are actually simpler to access and perform while under pressure. They are simpler due to the fact that they are more natural and instinctive. You have also put in the work in training, so that you have an understanding and comfort level that leads to a “just do it” state of mind.

    It is this “just do it” state of mind that is the true meaning of KISS!

    The recently contorted KISS concept is for the lowest common denominator. This is for those that do not learn, do not train, and do not practice. Every top athlete that I have ever seen has a vast number of skills, techniques, and tactics ingrained at a subconscious level. They can access these ingrained responses easily....at top speed, with zero conscious thought. They can also transition from one, to another, to another seamlessly. This is what all students of the art, that are serious about their training, should be striving for…..fluidity!

    “Be like water” Bruce Lee

  15. #30
    VIP Member Array glockman10mm's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sweatnbullets View Post
    Training with Suarez International is definitely not for those that want to remain mediocre. We do not focus on target shooting fruit out of a tree, we focus on being able to fight. We do not stop at the intermediate levels that Glock man seems to love so much......we push things as far as we can push them. There are plenty of places to train for fruit shooting and "mediocre intermediate skill sets only"........but Suarez International is not one of those places. This is not something that we are ashamed of. It is something that we are proud of.

    For every closed minded "you do not know what you do not know" person that attacks what we do on a gun forum, there are ten paying students that have decided to not remain mediocre. We do not debate to try to change the closed minded that do not know what they do not know.....we debate to embrace the open minded and to state our case on our common sense.

    The video was made to get right in the face of the established, dogmatic, mediocre, status quo. That is what it is designed to do. What you see in the video is something that came straight out of hundreds of force on force courses. This is how people act when they are being shot at and are fighting for their lives. The methods that you see in the video have been refined by thousands of students over a nearly six year period. Unlike the status quo, Suarez International has the stones to allow the students/fighters to progress the curriculum past the egotistical dogma of the recent past. We learn from every person that we train with.

    When the best of the best come to train with you and we make it clear that we are looking to advance the art as far as we can take it, the information, knowledge, and skill sets are taken to a level beyond what the dogmatic, guru worshippers of the recent past were ever able to accomplish. That simply is what it is. When you see a skill set with as much input and maturity as the one in the video and you dismiss it out of hand, you may want to examine the closed mindedness involved with those decisions.

    Being closed minded is a curse........the curse of those that can not progress.

    I have not concerns with proving anything to anyone on the internet. That is because I prove it nearly every weekend to my students while training. It is not about what I can do it is about what I can teach my students to do. And my students know that I can teach them to fight.

    Glockman, I missed one shot in those drills. It was at ten yards moving to the 5:00, Whether you believe me or not does not matter since I prove it nearly every weekend inside of my courses. Not only can I do it......I can teach it in just two days.

    You guys are welcome to be as mediocre as you like.......that is not the way that Suarez International rolls.
    I guess I can count it as an honor that you mentioned me at least twice in your post. And you may be correct, maybe I am mediocre. I have nothing to brag about or tout as my achievements in life. But I do not understand why you are being so defensive. Since I am so mediocre, untrained "fruit shooter", surely nothing I stated could be the truth.? It is not my intention to hinder your business oppurtunities here, but I am in disagreement with some of your philosophies. And , this being a forum, feel obliged to share another viewpoint. So, sorry if I am raining on your advertisement campaign here, but sharing alternate points of view seems to me to be the whole point of a discussion, and I never was a "yes man".

    However, if there is one thing that I am thankful to God for, and feel as an acheivment, it is having survived a couple of exchanges of gunfire, in two seperate incidents not counting military, and helping to develop techniques that increased officer survival in a gun fight. Now , that may be nothing compared to "the big boys" in the business, but I gladly share my experience with people, including training them free. Whom much has been given, much is required. And thats how I roll.
    Ignorance is a long way from stupid, but left unchecked, can get there real fast.

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