Combat Accuracy - Page 3

Combat Accuracy

This is a discussion on Combat Accuracy within the Defensive Carry & Tactical Training forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; Roger, While I have a great deal of respect for you…… Can you show me one documented case where what you taught someone in this ...

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  1. #31
    Sponsor Array DCJS Instructor's Avatar
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    Roger,

    While I have a great deal of respect for you……
    Can you show me one documented case where what you taught someone in this class enabled them to prevail in a gunfight.

    I have been teaching this every day for 20 years and can't teach people to do what you claim to be able to teach in 2 days. If you do my hats off to you.

    I for one am not close minded. I’m just one of those folks who HAS been on the other end of the gun.

    I am glad that you and all the Suarez Instructors are out teaching what you believe in.

    All I offered was a fair comparison…I just offered mine for free.

    You said “The More You Sweat in Training, the Less You Bleed in Combat” I say train the way you fight…So that you fight the way you trained.


  2. #32
    VIP Member Array glockman10mm's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DCJS Instructor View Post
    Roger,

    While I have a great deal of respect for you……
    Can you show me one documented case where what you taught someone in this class enabled them to prevail in a gunfight.

    I have been teaching this every day for 20 years and can't teach people to do what you claim to be able to teach in 2 days. If you do my hats off to you.

    I for one am not close minded. I’m just one of those folks who HAS been on the other end of the gun.

    I am glad that you and all the Suarez Instructors are out teaching what you believe in.

    All I offered was a fair comparison…I just offered mine for free.

    You said “The More You Sweat in Training, the Less You Bleed in Combat” I say train the way you fight…So that you fight the way you trained.
    "train the way you fight, so you fight the way you trained". Now, aint that the damned truth.
    Ignorance is a long way from stupid, but left unchecked, can get there real fast.

  3. #33
    Senior Member Array Sweatnbullets's Avatar
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    "train the way you fight, so you fight the way you trained".
    This is priceless!

    Tom, I to respect you and I am a little surprise that after all these years you have now decided to negatively comment on what I teach. The truth is that you have zero idea what I teach since you have never taken my courses (I teach a couple of dozen different courses.) You notice that I am not commenting on what you teach. You know why? Because I do not know what you teach.

    "You do not know what you do not know" applies very well here. Since you do not know what I teach that leaves you commenting from a position of ignorance. Which is something that kind of surprises me after all of these years.

    You all look at a very quick video clip (one small piece of the puzzle) and speculate on what it is that you see, what I am doing, why I am doing it, and whether I am making the hits. There is not one question asked......just pure speculation. Could it be that you feel that you could never learn something from me or from anyone else at Suarez International?

    I look at things very differently, I look to learn something from every person that I meet.

    While I am very happy for you and all of your contracts......that is not our focus and not who we look to cater to. We cater to those that want to be as deadly as they can be, whether that is military, LE, or private civilians. Many LEO's and Soldiers come to train with Suarez International because (and I will quote what I have been told numerous times) "your training far surpasses anything that I can get in the military or from my department." These people pay money right out of their pockets to learn the things that we teach, including dynamic movement point shooting. So, while I am very happy for your contracts.......you are not the only one that train those that go into harms way.

    Have you ever taken a Suarez International Force on Force course? If so, when, where, and with which instructor?

    If not, it would be pure speculation on whether we teach it right. You seem to be very sure that you are teaching it right......I assure you that we are just as sure that we are teaching it right.

    Notice that I never insinuated that you were teaching it wrong.....like you did. I would never insinuate such a thing because that would be speculation from a position ignorance.

    "train the way you fight, so you fight the way you trained".

    Back to this, I assure you that we believe in what we do as much as you believe in what you do. Everything that we do is pressure tested in properly structured force on force.

    If I may generalize a bit here. Often the differences in perspective comes down to the fact that many instructors have painted themselves into a corner due to their closed minded dogma. They have made statements in the past that keep them from progressing at the pace that they would like to. Often their ego will not allow them to ever state that they were wrong, therefore they are stuck in the past because their words have cemented themselves into that one tight little corner. When an open minded progressive instructor comes alongs and admits to the mistakes that he made in his past dogmatic life, the "painted into the corner" instructor can only attack......because that is their only course of action since they can not progress.

    Tom, I have never seen you in that light, but there are a ton of instructors out there that are just like that.

  4. #34
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    The following is only one member's opinion.

    What was shown in the video isn't that hard to accomplish in an afternoon, given enough ammunition and enough retakes on the video camera. There's less than meets the eye on the clip. It doesn't take an outsized measure of skill with a handgun to shoot close range silhouette targets while on the move. I've even tried some of this stuff 30 years ago but didn't see any point in pursuing it to any extent. Sometimes it seems these classes do promote outsized egos and condescending attitudes towards others.

    And this style of shooting helps how?

    Presumably it gives training on how to assassinate unarmed persons who are upright, standing still and who are hard to knock down. For that is the focus of all this shooting; a stationary paper target that just stands in the same position and isn't shooting back. Are these engagements timed and if they are, so what? It's still just a paper target, an aiming reference.

    Frankly, I'd find it cringingly embarrassing to know that I was featured in a YouTube clip shooting like that.

    Dismissive statements, smugly delivered like "You don't know what you don't know" are both feeble and unhelpful. It would be nice for the Forum to see some lucid discussion on the advantages of this training that go beyond: "The More You Sweat in Training, the Less You Bleed in Combat," "Put in the work" and "be like water."

    And the following really isn't a substitute for lucid discussion. What in the world does this really say?

    "The epiphany is complete. You now understand that keeping it simple in training does not equate to doing well in a confrontation. “Gun fighting is a thinking mans game.” The only way for you to keep it simple inside of a confrontation is by putting in the work while training. You need to work with solid natural/instinctive concepts…..ones that can be accessed by the caveman brain at the subconscious level. This breaks us away from that “one size fits all” technique based training and leads us into much more natural and fluid concepts. These fluid concepts begin to cover a much larger portion of the fight continuum."


    Forum members who don't choose to embrace these methods aren't chopped liver and don't exist on some lower plane of consciousness. There are lots of really great forum members here who will "do to ride the river with" because of the skill levels they possess right now, coupled with their resolve. While not the "best in the West" with a pistol, I've advanced far beyond mediocre and I suspect that Glockman10mm, Sweatnbullets, and quite a few others here on the Forum would be able to beat my hiney on most courses of fire involving a handgun.

    There are a number of forum members for whom this type of practice is simply unavailable for they don't have a range facility that would allow it and they have no shooting options elsewhere. They may not have funds available to attend courses that promote this kind of training. Guess they're just destined to be losers, right?

    I don't think so.


    "If the past KISS training failed miserably inside of properly structured FOF, it is very apparent that this contorted KISS ideology was the main factor in this failure."


    Did the past KISS training really fail miserably? How did it fail miserably? How was the KISS ideology contorted and why is it apparent? Were good guys dying in the streets in large numbers or rather was it hypothetical scenarios set up on the shooting range that shooters were failing to negotiate successfully?

    This training is all well and good but methinks it is a bit more testosterone-laden then it is truly invaluable. It's much like the hobby of drag racing. It's fine and dandy to build a car and drive it down the 1/4-mile track in under 10.8 seconds but it has very little relevance to real-world daily driving. I can drive to see my son in Little Rock without mastering drag racing. I can also effectively defend myself without resorting to a practice regimen of "scampering and spraying."

    "And who is the the authority on what is right and what is wrong?"

    No one who has posted in this thread so far is the final authority on that and even the "gunfighters" referred to earlier can't provide all the answers.

    "Being closed minded is a curse........the curse of those that can not progress."

    Sometimes it isn't a matter of close-mindedness but is a matter of maturity. This is the second time a video clip has been posted here on the Forum that illustrates both a lack of safe gun handling procedures and a measure of crass immaturity. I did some dumb things with firearms as a youth but did finally outgrow them. Thankfully, no one was there to record it all for posterity. Well, there was that time my cousins and I along with a bunch of friends went duck hunting in November of 1975 at our cabin and some cousin's friend brought an 8mm camera and filmed all of us standing in the cabin yard, every person with two 12 gauge shotguns and shooting them simultaneously at a...

    Nah, that film has to be long lost by now.
    OD* likes this.
    Charter Member of the DC .41 LC Society "Get heeled! No really"

    “No possible rapidity of fire can atone for habitual carelessness of aim with the first shot.”

    Theodore Roosevelt, The Wilderness Hunter, 1893

  5. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sweatnbullets View Post
    This is priceless!

    There is not one question asked......just pure speculation.

    Can you show me one documented case where what you taught someone in this class enabled them to prevail in a gunfight.

    Roger,

    I have NOT taken any training from YOU at SI. That is correct...
    However what I am perplexed about is that video.

    I am asking questions .....because I don't understand....I am willing to listen and learn.

  6. #36
    Senior Member Array Sweatnbullets's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DCJS Instructor View Post
    Can you show me one documented case where what you taught someone in this class enabled them to prevail in a gunfight.

    Roger,

    I have NOT taken any training from YOU at SI. That is correct...
    However what I am perplexed about is that video.

    I am asking questions .....because I don't understand....I am willing to listen and learn.
    So far there has not been one question.....just a calling out.

    A real question would be more like this;

    "Roger, how are your hits when you move like that?"

    "Roger, what have you discovered as the key elements to be able to guarantee the hits while moving that fast?"

    "Roger, how is it possible to teach such a high skill level skill set in just a couple of days?"

    "Roger, what percetage of students do you find unable to achieve those levels in just a couple of days?"

    Now those would be productive questions that would add content to the thread. Calling somebody out does not provide content........it makes the instructors look childish.

  7. #37
    Senior Member Array Sweatnbullets's Avatar
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    Priorities of the Gun Fight and “The Fight Continuum”


    (1) Avoid one easily and completely due to preparedness, knowledge, and awareness by being deselected.

    (2) See one coming and get the heck out of Dodge due to preparedness, knowledge, and awareness.

    (3) See one coming due to preparedness, knowledge, and awareness, but to have no choice but to end it by dominating the action and decisively ending it with solid behind cover or stand and deliver marksmanship skills.

    Unfortunately, “The Fight Continuum” does not stop here.

    (4) See one coming due to preparedness, knowledge, and awareness, at the same time that a dedicated opponent recognizes that you see it coming. The context of the fight is equal initiative and the victor will be the one that mitigates his weaknesses while maximizing his strengths. “Stand and deliver”, sighted fire, controlled movement, alternative sighting methods, dynamic movement, or point shooting. It all comes down to who are you, what is your skill level, what are your limitations? The higher the skill level, the lower the chance of taking rounds. Remember “Movement favors the trained shooter….dynamic movement favors them even more so.”

    (5) Find out that you are going to be in a gunfight only after you have seen the adversary’s weapon and he has the opportunity to inflict serious bodily harm or death……right now! We must attempt to take back the lost initiative. This can be done with deception, distraction, metsubushi (throwing of something in the adversaries face), or dynamic movement. Timing is everything at this point. You can wait for the perfect time out of your deception, distraction or metsubushi……or the perfect time could be an “immediate action” with your dynamic movement. If the “immediate action” is the best way to handle the situation, explode off of the X to get inside of the adversaries OODA loop. Acquire your handgun, put hits onto the adversary as quickly as you possibly can to try to take back the lost initiative. Fluidly move from a reactive position to, to equal initiative, to the point that you are dominating and decisively ending the confrontation by the use of your dynamic movement and the ballistic effect of your “progressively accurate marksmanship.”

    (6) Find out that you are going to be in a gunfight, but only after you go “hands on” to get the adversaries weapon off of you and you create enough distance/time so that you can acquire your handgun. Integrate quality “hands on” skills to the point that the weapon is off of you and that you have the time to access and index onto the threat. The available time that you create dictates the type of response that is most effective and efficient.

    What do I mean when I say “Priorities?” This is the order I would prefer a gun fight to come down. Unfortunately, preferences have very little to do with reality.

    “The fight will be what the fight will be!”

    We must understand the need to be “well rounded” in order to cover the fight that shows up on your doorstep. The very core of this “well roundedness” is the mental aspect of the fight. Preparedness, knowledge, and awareness are just one part of the mental aspect of the fight. Understanding the dynamics of a fight is another huge aspect of being well rounded. Without this understanding, the ability to apply the best solutions to the specific situation will be severely hampered.

    “Situations dictate strategies, strategies dictate tactics, and tactics dictate techniques.”

    We need to have very well rounded skill sets (numerous techniques that make up fluid concepts) so that we can access the very best solution to the specifics of the situation. These fluid concepts need to be accessible at the conscious level and the subconscious levels in order to cover the entire “fight or flight” spectrum.

    “Luck favors the prepared!”

  8. #38
    Member Array Gabe Suarez's Avatar
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    Wow. I thought the issue about point shooting was fairly put to bed. Apparently it, as well as the 45 vs 9mm one is still going. You know the interesting thing about the following topis -

    Point Shooting
    Shooting while moving duynamically
    Force On Force training

    They do two things. First they replicate what will happen in a real reactive close range gunfight far better than ANY other sort of training. All you have to do unbelievers, is to go to youtube and find us a clip of someone standing in a perfetc weaver stance firing pairs using the sights in a real reactive gunfight. I will bet that you cannot, but you will find plenty of videos of people running, and point shooting. Interesting huh? After the fact interviews are marginally interesting because people will explain things based on their world view and expectations of performamnce. Thus if they have been trained to see the sights, they will report seeing them.

    One case was in training....at a class at the Impact Zone in Katy, Texas. One student had just completed a very intense FOF drill, where he had faced a couple of bad guys and prevailed by moving off the x and shooting one handed. I debriefed him immediately in front of the rest of the class. I asked him about his sight picture. He stated loud and without doubt that he had seen a clear and perfect sight picture for every shot he had fired. This man was not only a grad of all the big name modern technique schools, but an officer in the Army as well.

    The punch line is that I asked him to give me the airsoft pistol that sat in his holster....it was one of mine I'd brought to class. It was used in various classes before and the sights were missing....BOTH SIGHTS. I showed him that there were no sights on it. He later told me that he thought he'd seen them, but apparently had used point shooting to hit his targets/adversaries. I will be this does not happen just in training.

    Moreover, I would ask those with the "sights-always-at all distances" this very simple question. How many reactive gunfights have you been in? Now I am not talking about the sort where you get to prepare and wait for the bad guys...where you have all the opportunity and initiative...like cops, and special ops people do. No. I refer to those where you are walking into the 711 to get a cup of coffee and as your mind drifts to the double-disgusting coffee drink you are about to - GUNFIGHT!!! Without any prepe time, right there in your face. That is where these skill sets fit in.

    The other thing that this sort of training does is that it makes people uncomfortable. It makes those whose goal in training is to look good. Kinda like the bodybuilder inspecting his puffed up bicep in the mirror, the modern tecghnique shooter likes to admire himself, his stance, his gun, and his tight group on the unmoving paper target. Nobody looks good when they are trying to not get shot, or when they are wrestling on the ground trying to trap an adversary's knife hand while accessing their own gun....while they actually get dirty doing it. As well, this type of training, shows its graduates that everything they have done previously was nothing but a preparation for this, and nothing else.

    In the end, as the wise man says, the proof is in the pudding....or quite how the pudding is when its done. So here it is. Show me boys and girls. Prove to me by your performance, beyond a shadow of a doubt that point shooting sucks and modern technique stand and deliver sighted fire modern technique works. No...not on some sedate and clinical square range exercise, but in the force on force setting. Come to a class and stand there in your weaver stance watching your sights, and pressing carefully, and prevail at close range against someone who is doing what we profess.

    But talk is cheap, not to mention boring and cowardly. Do it - prevail, "kill the bad guy with out you yourself getting shot (that means you shoot and he is simply too slow or inaccurate at combat distances to keep up with you right?) and we will give you $1000.

    Gabe Suarez
    Suarez International USA - Reality-Based Gunfight Training - (928) 776-4492, or (928) 308-1512

  9. #39
    Member Array nick060200's Avatar
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    hits on target are what counts so who cares how it gets done? from watching the viedo i would say that a person could move and shoot like that and still be very safe with a weapon.
    There is no hunting like the hunting of man, and those who have hunted armed men long enough and liked it, never care for anything else thereafter.

  10. #40
    Member Array patrol's Avatar
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    The more you sweat in training, the less you bleed in combat. It's also the reason our Range sessions now are more "shoot and move" related and getting the heart rate up when gross motor skills are affected more. Ammo cost money so for that reason we do not do near enough training however there are alternate tools such as our F.A.T.S machine that get's you more in tune with real life shoots. As to where you place shots on a bad guy there are two factors that sum up "stopping a fight". One is bleed out and the other is "trauma". You wan't both but either at a fast rate will do the job. You also will see us in Law Enforcement have better results in real life shootout's than in the past based on the "active shooter" type shoot and move drills we train in more often versus standing "static" and shooting non-moving targets.
    If you can read this thank a teacher. If it is written in English thank a Marine.

  11. #41
    Ex Member Array azchevy's Avatar
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    I just don't understand why one instructor would start calling out another then try to give away free training. It is extremely unprofessional in my book. As for those of you that don't see the need to train like that, fine... don't. But to make ignorant comments such as
    it gives training on how to assassinate unarmed persons who are upright, standing still and who are hard to knock down.
    is not only ridiculous but really shows the mentality of the close minded. Fairbairn, Sykes, and Applegate all experienced the same kind of closed minded ignorant mentality when they first started to introduce their techniques. Personally I could care less. it is obvious that we cannot train on moving targets using live ammunition, however, my training and techniques have translated well into the airsoft force on force training I do. Whether it is you are old and close minded to the new ways, out of shape and cannot perform these techniques, or simply do not have the range to do them on, you can still practice with airsoft weapons in a force on force environment. there is nothing wrong with having fun, I do it all the time, but you must train to be attacked as a ccw. You are not a specop warrior, a swat team leader. You are not going to be hutt hutting to standing positions and making aimed shots. You dont have backup, you dont have radio... you need to create space and get rounds on target after you have either moved away from the threat or used some sort of technique to block an attack and created space. So to make comments like that just shows your mentality.

    Here is a PERFECT example of moving while point shooting, guess what? The trained cop got KILLED: YouTube - Policial é morto por bandido friamente.


    Here is a wonderful study on the subject: Force Science News #66: New tests Show Deadly Accuracy & Startling Speed Even Inexperienced Shooters Can Achieve In Shooting Cops at Force Science News

    Another great point shooting for survival: Globo Vídeos - VIDEO - Bandido e frentista trocam tiros em Santa Catarina



    With that I leave you with some Jelly Bryce wisdom as he has been there done that. I will take his wisdom any day of the week over some angry internet folk who refuse to learn different techniques or instructors who feel the need to bash other instructors on public forums and then try to drum up business like snake oil salesmen. Before you start spouting off that I am a Roger Phillips fan boy, just know I have NEVER taken one of his classes. I have only purchased his DVD and Book. My first introduction to this was by my own real life experiences which led me to take force on force training paid by my past .gov employer and then develop from there into where I am now.


    ONe time when I was feeling my oats I ask Mr. Bryce, about killing people and shooting. Starnge enough to a thirteen year old, he said "Its a damn bad job", and suggest don't do it.. You may get to like it.

    I knew more was coming so I waited , and then he started:

    Single man or [woman], shoot for the gut up close, it hurts like hell and bleeds like a stuck pig,,and most believe their done with a bullet there,
    If that doesn't stop them keep shooting up into the chest, and last the head.

    He always stressed not to shoot for the head until last, again strange enough, he remarked,"Remember their some bodys kid".

    I replied okay what about more than one, his reply "If you can use a shotgun,load it with blue peters whistlers" Found out later its 00 buck.

    Again shoot for the gut area.. Okay but what about your 357,,"Well then its a pair to each, and then back to those who need it"

    "The game is to send them to hades,not you"

    When you approach a bad man what do you do?
    Make sure your ready and have your pistol in your hand,,if not make sure nothing is in the way to stop your draw,, unbutton you coat, remember to hook it with your thumb, if need be grab the bottom of the coat with your other hand and PULL IT!!! to the side .

    Never stand still if you can, always go foreward if you can,and never stop.
    COver is and can be your friend, but don't worry about it,,if you do it right they will be the ones caught with their pants down.

    I asked him how he knew if some one was going to draw on him
    "THe eyes,give'm away every time"

    Couple of years later when the ole man took me to Col.Askins, His comment was " DAMN SMART MAN"
    We spent some time toward the end of the last month going over , what and what not to do in chasing bad guys. As most know his "rep" alone was enough to make most come out..

    "Never follow a man into a whore house,or saloon, if he is visting them he has friends there, if possible wait him out." If you can't ,,go in with force ,at lest 3 of your best men, and go heavy, with guns in hand.

    Never chase into an alley,for the common sense reasons, if he ran into it,he more than likely knows it. if you go into one, do so slowly and quitely, doesn't matter weather you go down the middle or hug the wall, your behind the 8 ball, keep your weapon up at the waist charged and ready to go,,look with the eyes,not the head{I asked about this and what he meant was sweep with the eyes,use side vision,and then slowly pivot the head}

    If the shooting starts,move and fire if you can and fire at the flash or his outline if you can see it.Don't worry about the center get lead into him.

    IF you can't move stand and deliever, some times when all else is moving the still man wins with controled shots...

    This is where he said the shotgun was the best tool,a short one tuck up under your side, use a clean white hankerchif tied around the front bead, it will catch the light and give you a reference point. {Col.Askins said the same} When firing depress the barrel a little at night you will tend to shoot high.

    I asked about back up's,, he didn't think carrying two guns was a bad idea,as long as you practiced with them

    Never brag about shooting men, it makes you small , but never aplogize for you are the right man, never profit from a death,and never fear death, for GOD will know.

    "I have known some truly evil men,and every one deserved a bullet,,several of them"

    have a nice day


  12. #42
    New Member Array G30Jack's Avatar
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    Our instructors (including myself) teach a basic class based on Roger's PSP material. In my last class, I had two students that pushed things out past 30 yards on a full size steel IPSC target and got consistent hits (one gentleman was 100% accurate) with below line of sight techniques. It works. Period.
    Jack Rumbaugh, Suarez International Tier One Staff Instructor, Virginia

    "Most people find change in their dryer, I find bullets"- My wife
    Warning shots are for wusses. Fire is for effect.

  13. #43
    Member Array nick060200's Avatar
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    i will also say that the couple of gunfights i have been in where i was ambushed (iraq/Afghanistan) and the gunfight came with no warning i was not looking for a sight picture on my first mag. i was pointing and shooting. however after my first reload in all those situations i was trying to pick targets and using my sights. i was also behind cover at this point. so i think both have their place in shooting.
    There is no hunting like the hunting of man, and those who have hunted armed men long enough and liked it, never care for anything else thereafter.

  14. #44
    Ex Member Array azchevy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by nick060200 View Post
    i will also say that the couple of gunfights i have been in where i was ambushed (iraq/Afghanistan) and the gunfight came with no warning i was not looking for a sight picture on my first mag. i was pointing and shooting. however after my first reload in all those situations i was trying to pick targets and using my sights. i was also behind cover at this point. so i think both have their place in shooting.
    Thank you for your service.

  15. #45
    VIP Member Array Guantes's Avatar
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    AZchevy,

    Re Mr. Bryce, sounds like DJ recounting his experiences.
    "I do what I do." Cpl 'coach' Bowden, "Southern Comfort".

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