Combat Accuracy

This is a discussion on Combat Accuracy within the Defensive Carry & Tactical Training forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; AZchevy, I have been a training officer up until several years ago for a number of years. Back in the 80s when I was stationed ...

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  1. #61
    VIP Member Array glockman10mm's Avatar
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    AZchevy, I have been a training officer up until several years ago for a number of years. Back in the 80s when I was stationed in Quantico, I helped develop training for OCS, and taught small arms. Suarez is not doing anything new that has not been done over the years in the development of tactics. The only difference is he is promoting his. I have no problem with that at all.

    It never occurred to me to promote my ideas, beyond training for my staff.

    Too take on a challenge that I , or anyone could come up with a tactic that would keep you from getting hit is ridiculous. No matter how sound your tactic, there is always a chance. So Gabe, I guess your phone won't be ringing.

    So now it's 0 to 5 feet distance?
    Ignorance is a long way from stupid, but left unchecked, can get there real fast.

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  3. #62
    Senior Member Array CR Williams's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by glockman10mm View Post
    The key here is to time the punch, and parry it as close to your face as possible without it hitting you. Now you have put yourself at a point of advantage and can strike at will,because you are now standing to the side and away from your opponets other arm, and have several areas to strike that are non defensible for your opponent.
    Or you can use an evasive movement to slip the punch as you deliver a counterstrike. That's what we teach at SI. It is not just moving to the right or left, it is not combining fight and flight. It is an evasive movement with simultaneous or near-simultaneous counterattack, or an evasive counterattack. I learned the same kind of angling to evade and strike simultaneously when I was studying Bujinkan Budo Taijitsu.

    Quote Originally Posted by glockman10mm View Post
    The same concept works for any fight. We can either allow our bodies to pursue flight, or train it to fight. In my opinion, trying to do both , little is gained.
    Maneuver, whether for defense and then attack or to set up an attack, is a time-tested concept at all scales of combat. The movement you describe in the earlier post, if I understand the description, does not reduce the chances of getting hit as much as a full displacement such as SI teaches. Additionally, you seem stuck on the idea that shooting while moving at speed in such a way is not as accurate it has been demonstrated to be. I'm prepared to think I'm confused about what you're saying here, especially about the movement you describe, but you still seem to be assigning some element of 'spray and pray' to what Roger, specifically, teaches. That assumption is incorrect and inaccurate.

    It does not have to be fight or flight, exclusive, (in that you can only attack or defend or evade without any overlap) and it is not limited in direction or to a specific direction once started. And it is designed to allow solid, fight-stopping hits to be obtained from start to finish. It is a skill-set that makes use of instinctive reactions we all will have when faced with threat, but it is also complex and nuanced enough to be adaptable to a wide range of circumstances. The concepts and principles used are all combat-proven and continue to be.

    And I don't know what else I can say about it, so I'll stop where I'm at.
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  4. #63
    VIP Member Array glockman10mm's Avatar
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    I never said spray and pray. I understand that this is not what you are teaching. I also understand and agree that movement is crucial, and putting rounds on target are desired. What I am saying is that by minimizing your body by quickly dropping below the line of sight while squiring and simutaniously putting rounds on target is quicker, is a more natural movement than the one in the video, in my opinion.

    Now as for the punch, let's say a right thrown at you, if you step into it, parry, you are now to the right side of the attacker, and his left( which you know is the next one coming), cannot be used effectively against you, so in effect, it's neutrilized, and you are in position for several strikes, including a side thrust kick to the back of the knee to drive him to the ground.
    Ignorance is a long way from stupid, but left unchecked, can get there real fast.

  5. #64
    Member Array jrfctx's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by glockman10mm View Post
    Let me clear something up here. You automatically think that because I do not agree with the philosophy, that I do not have the skill, and label me a "fruit shooter". The fact of the matter which is verifiable by examining what I have said in the past here, is that I am a big advocate of instinctive shooting. Been doing it for years. Long before people were trying to promote it as the " new thing in defensive handgunning" for profit. It is a tool, has it's place, and should be taught.

    The problem I have is you guys come on here posting what you believe to be gospel, and then take issue with anyone who disagrees. Of course , it's bad for business to let a different perspective be heard to loud too often. So then every Suarez instructor in the country jumps on.

    Another, and more fundemental issue I have is that many people who jump on the CCW bandwagon, are grossly lacking in fundementals. People like us, and many others on this forum, have grown up and been doing this a long time. But many have not. So, they are open to anything that someone shoves at them. They will enroll in classes that are way beyond their level. This is the now generation. Can you imagine what would happen, if someone who took the shoot and move course, had a "gun fight" in a public area, adrenelin pumping, and started popping off rounds, before he could really mastered sighted aimed fire?
    Headlines, "CCW holder accidentally kills 3 bystanders during shootout"
    to think that someone can gain this level of expertise in a 2 day class is not realistic. Even if they have mastered the basics, they would need to practice this continuously to maintain a level of competency. Very few people have the time or money to do this, let alone facilities, so what is gained? Additionally, there is no way to really duplicate the level of the pucker factor you experience in an actual confrontation. And that's a game changer.

    In reality, this training is very unnecassary for the vast majority of people. Even with the risk level I have, everyday, which is much higher than most(yet not as great as others), I have had enough training and trained enough people to understand the extremely low chance of having an encounter of this type.

    Most folks have a much, much, greater risk of heart attack, or diabetes, cancer or carwreck than needing to use a firearm.

    In my opinion, I believe training should be focused on reality based training, such as how and where you carry your weapon, accessibility, draw stroke, and presentation, and scenario training base on decision making.
    As far as me being a fruit shooter, I'll admit, some fruit need to be killed, and some are pretty damn tough. But if you can hit an apple, you can hit a head.
    I have a problem with anyone assuming they know what the "vast majority of people" need or don't need as far as training for self preservation. Sounds like you've had to play for keeps a couple times. That being the case I'm sure you have relevant experience to share with others, but keep in mind, you may have a couple of pieces of the puzzle, but not the whole thing.

    Anyone who has been in a lethal force encounter can share their experience, how it has shaped their skill sets and approach to training, but to purport that those experiences can determine what methods the "vast majority" should or should not train in, is presumptuous and arrogant.

  6. #65
    VIP Member Array glockman10mm's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jrfctx View Post
    I have a problem with anyone assuming they know what the "vast majority of people" need or don't need as far as training for self preservation. Sounds like you've had to play for keeps a couple times. That being the case I'm sure you have relevant experience to share with others, but keep in mind, you may have a couple of pieces of the puzzle, but not the whole thing.

    Anyone who has been in a lethal force encounter can share their experience, how it has shaped their skill sets and approach to training, but to purport that those experiences can determine what methods the "vast majority" should or should not train in, is presumptuous and arrogant.
    Presumptous and arrogant? I have been called alot of things in my life, but for people who know me, thats not true. I have never claimed to be an expert, hell, I try to avoid any credit for anything, too much work involved. But I can take it on the chin. I have no axe to grind either. My experience, is something that I am not sure any training could have made a difference in. But I do know that when tshtf, we act differently. The SUAREZ group, and others offer what I am sure is excellent training. Some training is better than nothing. However, the mind must be conditioned to react in a certain way, to a certain situation. Proper training and mindset can accomplish this. And from my experience, and study of such things, there are alternative techniques that may work better in this given scenario.

    As to my assuming I know what is best for the majority of the people, well, thats my opinion based on observing and working with alot of them. You dont have to read too many posts on a few forums to get the idea that some people are very ignorant and probably should not be carrying a weapon of any kind. If thats arrogant or presumptious to anyone , I make no apologies for it, for I consider it a fact.
    There is a difference in fighting techniques, and techniques that promote survivability. Anyone who thinks that their training will allow them to not get hit is foolish and unrealistic. Like anything else, there are different schools of thought on the issue.
    I make no claims of knowing it all, and like I said before, theres no money in it for me.
    Ignorance is a long way from stupid, but left unchecked, can get there real fast.

  7. #66
    VIP Member Array Harryball's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by glockman10mm View Post
    Presumptous and arrogant? I have been called alot of things in my life, but for people who know me, thats not true. I have never claimed to be an expert, hell, I try to avoid any credit for anything, too much work involved. But I can take it on the chin. I have no axe to grind either. My experience, is something that I am not sure any training could have made a difference in. But I do know that when tshtf, we act differently. The SUAREZ group, and others offer what I am sure is excellent training. Some training is better than nothing. However, the mind must be conditioned to react in a certain way, to a certain situation. Proper training and mindset can accomplish this. And from my experience, and study of such things, there are alternative techniques that may work better in this given scenario.

    As to my assuming I know what is best for the majority of the people, well, thats my opinion based on observing and working with alot of them. You dont have to read too many posts on a few forums to get the idea that some people are very ignorant and probably should not be carrying a weapon of any kind. If thats arrogant or presumptious to anyone , I make no apologies for it, for I consider it a fact.
    There is a difference in fighting techniques, and techniques that promote survivability. Anyone who thinks that their training will allow them to not get hit is foolish and unrealistic. Like anything else, there are different schools of thought on the issue.
    I make no claims of knowing it all, and like I said before, theres no money in it for me.
    You keep talking about alternative techniques. Im always up for something new. Please list some of these. Books, DVDs, anything would be nice.

    Thanks
    Don"t let stupid be your skill set....

  8. #67
    VIP Member Array glockman10mm's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Harryball View Post
    You keep talking about alternative techniques. Im always up for something new. Please list some of these. Books, DVDs, anything would be nice.

    Thanks
    PM on the way.
    Ignorance is a long way from stupid, but left unchecked, can get there real fast.

  9. #68
    Ex Member Array azchevy's Avatar
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    So we are only sending tips and techniques to a select few?

  10. #69
    New Member Array Buski's Avatar
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    Gabe

    I might be up for that Gabe. You could use your 2 instructors, that train here in Columbia SC.

    I know Alex & he'd probably really enjoy an opportunity to shoot @ me.

    What are the ground rules?
    Sua Sponte

  11. #70
    Distinguished Member Array Bill MO's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by glockman10mm View Post
    So now it's 0 to 5 feet distance?

    glockman, at what distance do you see most average CC situations happening? I see the 0-5 feet distance being realistic, but 21 feet catching most all of the scenarios where CCer's will have to shoot.

    I have taken Roger's 2 day Point Shooting Class and feel very confident in making hits at that range while moving. And yes I learned to do this in 2 days. By making hits I'm saying I can hit a 8X11 sheet of paper, place that on the chest and you have the COM covered. Can also make head shots at this range, all in the knowing. I will have more reference on the gun at the 21 foot range and the head shots than I do at the closer ranges. But will still not have a good sights picture. I could not get a good sight picture if I wanted one, as the sights are nothing but a blur at any time. Can not see the notch in back sight, this is why I like point shooting.

    You say you do not like the moving to the sides, but would rather drop, if I'm understanding you right you are taking a knee to lower your body. If so I have tried that in FOF class and keeping my feet under me and moving them showed better results of not taking hits. Maybe you have and doing something I'm not seeing and doing, but thats my findings.

    We each will choose what we train and how we will fight, and we will also live or die by that choice.
    It's gotta be who you are, not a hobby. reinman45

    "Is this persons bad behavior worth me having to kill them over?" Guantes

  12. #71
    VIP Member Array glockman10mm's Avatar
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    Azchevy, I described the technique to him because he asked. I would gladly share it for the benefit of all who may prefer it, however, I do not have it in video or paper, so I was going to make a short training video and post for all here to use or discard as they desire.
    The technique was originally designed for Marines to be able to transition from slung rifles to putting effective rounds on target in case of ambush from the flank. We called it "jungle sling".
    It just so happened, that it worked great with handguns. It was to be adopted by the FBI, for Field Agent Course Cirriculum, but an unfortunate incident in Miami put everything on hold, and it never made the transition when they rewrote the training. The Marines did adopt Jungle Sling, but it too has been scrapped due to a new war enviroment and mission, ie...jungle warfare vs desert warfare.
    Ignorance is a long way from stupid, but left unchecked, can get there real fast.

  13. #72
    VIP Member Array glockman10mm's Avatar
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    Bill Mo, that is a realistic distance, I agree, it was more of a clarification question.

    My knee never touches the ground. I go into a squat/kneel, kind of like an improvised rice patty squat, except much tighter with weak side bladed to target and upper arm of support hand protecting the weak side rib cage. The draw and shots fired on target begin instantly, as you minimize. It quickly takes you out of the line of fire, allows for your preference of fire, provides protection, and allows for quick adjustments in a variety of directions.

    One should take care and not bang their knee to the ground. It could have long lasting effects.
    Ignorance is a long way from stupid, but left unchecked, can get there real fast.

  14. #73
    New Member Array Buski's Avatar
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    Bill!..I know I'm interupting (ie excuse me); but BILL!

    You've been conpletely eluding my questions concerning shot placement...and then you blurt out, this chest shot & head shot stuff.

    Why didn't you say this...aaahhhh, 5 pages ago?
    Sua Sponte

  15. #74
    Distinguished Member Array Bill MO's Avatar
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    Buski, I think I read in one of Roger's posts where he stated that in the video he missed only once. I thought that covered the question. If Roger says he did it you can believe it to be true to his best knowledge.

    Yes I consider Roger to be a friend, Why? I did not know him until I took his 2 day Point Shooting Class (in 2009 I think). I came away from that 2 days with training that would give me a chance to go through a gunfight and live. I think he can teach me more if only I would attend the classes. I knew how to shoot before that, I had the MT Training and before my eyes got bad I could shoot the small tight groups. I have the medal from the service to prove it, BIG DEAL. Shooting those tight groups where not going to save my a** when someone was shooting at me. I came away from those 2 days knowing how to make effective shots while looking at the gun with peripheral vision. (See what you need to see to make the shot) and could make those hits faster than I ever could with sights. Also how to move, helping to keep from taking hit myself. What Roger teaches is not just point, shoot and pray it is a form of sighted fired without the sights. Yes after you practice it enough muscle memory happens, but over all it is much more than that. And yes Roger is good at teaching it to those who wish to learn. Some will be better than others and I think Roger will agree with that statement. Just how tight of a group do you need to stop someone from hurting you? I say if I can put most of my shoots in a 6-8 in circle that is good enough. I use a lot of sheets of paper and dinner plates for targets.

    I then took that training to FOF and found that what I had learned worked against someone who wanted to put pocks on me before I did on him.

    OK I'll get off my stump
    It's gotta be who you are, not a hobby. reinman45

    "Is this persons bad behavior worth me having to kill them over?" Guantes

  16. #75
    Senior Member Array Sweatnbullets's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by glockman10mm View Post
    There is a way to "get off the x" and deliver accurate aimed fire without running to the left or right, or away. It is much quicker, and the point shooting, or flash sight picture can be utilized. It also provides a level of protection to your chest and vital areas. In my opinion, it is much easier to learn, can be used as in the absence of cover, and is much quicker.

    Reality to me is using and learning things that are effective, provide the ability to fight back using effective fire on the target. It should be fast, smooth, uncomplicated, and provide a measure of protection.

    Running left or right and firing as you go is not the best way to accomplish this. Sure, it is better than standing there, but it allows the opponet too much oppurtunity to hit you also. Additionally, your chest is fully exposed, or your back is if running away. Also if your arm is raised as you return fire, as in an oblique postioning, there is a clear path open for a lucky bullet to enter your high in your rib cage.

    It is better to do something than do nothing. For all of you who are suggesting that I am saying the opposite, you are wrong.
    In a close situation like that, one must expect there is a good chance of being hit.
    So, what can we do to minimize the hit, if it comes?
    That is the thing the focus should be on; survivability if despite your best effort, he gets lucky.
    The method I teach, allows you to greatly minimize the area of your body to shoot at, while allowing you to begin firing at the same time. It ends in a body position that allows for a stable shooting platform, while at the same time using the large bones in your body to protect your vital areas.
    It gets you out of the line of fire quicker than you can make the first step sideways or front to back. It allows immediate target engagement with more accurate fire, and protection from any hit you may take.

    This is the type of technique I feel people need to learn. That's the reality I'm talking about.
    I call BS!

    Since you are so sure that I called you "a fruit shooter" when I did not, I may as well call BS on your super secret method. If you had any stones you would put up a video so we could make a judgement.

    As it stands, it is just a lot of hot air.

    Your "holy than thou" attitude about "teaching for free" and how that makes you better than others is really getting old. I taught for free for thirty years. Unlike what you think, that does not make me morally superior to everyone else. Unlike you, I have invested a huge amount of money training with a huge number of instructors. With your lack of any significant investment it is probably best to keep teaching for free......since your training level is extremely sparse.

    In retospect, I suppose the point I want to make is that I have no problem with movement and shooting as a skill to have in the box. And I have no issue with paper targets, us them myself. My issue here deals with the concept that combining the skills of fight and flight into one package. The most unnatural thing to do in a fist fight is walk towards the punch. Yet, by doing so, you are putting yourself in position to strike a blow. The key here is to time the punch, and parry it as close to your face as possible without it hitting you. Now you have put yourself at a point of advantage and can strike at will,because you are now standing to the side and away from your opponets other arm, and have several areas to strike that are non defensible for your opponent.

    The same concept works for any fight. We can either allow our bodies to pursue flight, or train it to fight. In my opinion, trying to do both , little is gained.
    Your lack of knowledge on what I teach and your willingness to comment on it is astounding. Have you ever considered the fact the you have only witnessed a few quick moments of what I actually teach. To comment with such authority, from a position of such ignorance, betrays an arrogance that I have only seen in very few people. I guess that should not surprise me since I have only read a few of your posts and you manage to brag about your life threatening encounters in nearly every single one.

    If you do not practice fighting in every direction on the clock you are not covering your bases. You are flat sided and when the situation dictates reality to you, you are going to be in a position that you have never been in before and you are not going to have the skills necessary to win.

    Whether you realize it of not, your willingness to speak so loudly about things that you have no idea about is extremely arrogant and presumptous. I am not sure where your disconnect is with that realty. Since you have next to zero idea what I teach, you may want to take a look at yourself and your need to chime in from such a position of ignorance and arrogance.

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