Combat Accuracy

This is a discussion on Combat Accuracy within the Defensive Carry & Tactical Training forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; The point of the Combat Accuracy article is to get people past the idiotic teaching that it is all about making the hit. It is ...

Page 6 of 7 FirstFirst ... 234567 LastLast
Results 76 to 90 of 99
Like Tree10Likes

Thread: Combat Accuracy

  1. #76
    Senior Member Array Sweatnbullets's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2006
    Location
    Las Vegas
    Posts
    728

    How do you know what you are capable of if you do not know what you are not capableof

    The point of the Combat Accuracy article is to get people past the idiotic teaching that it is all about making the hit. It is not all about making the hit! It is all about the perfect balance "to hit and to not be hit" within the correct context of the fight. So much of the training of the recent past has been just about making the hit. This teaching and this mindset can get people killed. That is a very low standard of training, because it does not take the reality of the fight into consideration.

    As we look at being as deadly as we can possibly be inside of "the perfect balance" it is clear that not getting hit is extremely important. There are times that the importance of that fact will lead to less than perfect accuracy. The only way to get comfortable with this fact is by understanding the accepted accuracy levels inside of the reality of combat. Not the made up BS on the square range.......but the historically proven combat for blood reality.

    "How do you know what you are capable of if you do not know what you are not capable of?"

    Since we train to the higher standard of the toughest of situations, we are more likely to not be perfect inside of our training. But the only way to progress in the most efficient and effective manner as possible is by learning through pushing the envelope and being man enough to fail.

    If you do not fail......you can not learn to be as deadly as you can possibly be. It is only through failure that you can find out what you are truely capable of. Because if you do not fail, you do not know your limitations. If you do not know your limitations you do not know what you need to be working on to be as deadly as you can possibly be.

    There are plenty of ignorant people out there that look at our PSP targets and think that we are accepting a lower standard. But it is their ignorance that is the problem.......not how hard we push ourselves. They have no idea what level we are working at because they can not even grasp the difficulty level that we are pushing ourselves to achieve. When the "you do not know what you do not know" training junkies comment on what they think they know......it is nothing more than mildly amusing to me. There is a certain subsection of closed minded, ignorant, overly opinionated people out there that I hope never break away from their dogma. My passion in life is to help "good" people. I have zero interest in trying to save the life of a closed minded, ignorant, overly opinionated person. Straight out, I do not want people like that in my courses or anywhere near me and the good people that I strive to help.

    So, I am good with the fact that I am an "in your face son of a gun." I am good with the fact that I piss people off. I am good with the fact that there are a certain subsection of people that will always hate me. I strive to incite them. I strive to have everyone around them questioning them. I strive to force them to put there common sense up against my common sense.

    The single most important thing that I teach inside of any of my courses is "drive the gun to the focal point." "Lock onto a dime size point on your adversary and drive the gun directly to that point, using the very best eye/hand coordination and body mechanics that you can possibly muster." "Get to your sights if it is at all possible inside of the situation." "Aim small and miss small."

    That means put the hits, as close as possible, to exactly where you want the hits to be, inside of what the situation will allow.

    "Situations dictate strategy, strategy dictate tactics, and tactics dictate techniques!"

    The situation is the king and you are just a pawn inside the situation doing the very best that you can. An extremely well trained pawn will usually do much better than a closed minded, ignorant, overly opinionated pawn.

  2. Remove Ads

  3. #77
    Senior Member Array Sweatnbullets's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2006
    Location
    Las Vegas
    Posts
    728
    Some Thoughts on Point Shooting
    By Roger Phillips Suarez International Specialist Instructor


    Recently there has been a decent amount of anti-point shooting talk in some circles. While some of this talk comes from people that do deserve a good deal of respect, I feel that it would be wrong to not address some of the misrepresentations that have been made in order to cast a bad light on point shooting. The way that I look at it is, it does not matter how elite you are, if you are going to dismiss the accomplishments and skill sets of the elite that came before you, you have put your comments into the position to be judged by others, the same way that you have judged others. The bottom line is that point shooting as been used successfully by some of “the elite of the elite” for a very long time. It is a combat proven skill set used by some of the greatest gun fighters this world has ever seen, people such as Col. Askins, Jelly Bryce, Bill Jordan, Col. Fairbairn, Col. Sykes, British SAS, and Darby’s Rangers, just to name a few. To suggest that these men did not know how to get it done would be extremely presumptuous.

    I am going to give a point by point counter to some of these recent anti-point shooting statements and misrepresentations, my comments are in bold.

    “Some of the stuff that we are seeing on the range that is a concern to those of us that are out there as trainers in this industry is that people want to talk about point shooting.”

    Some of the stuff that concerns me as somebody that is out there as a trainer in this industry is when combat proven skill sets are dismissed out of hand, without the training necessary to make the distinction on whether the skill sets have merit. It concerns me when trainers are unable to see the successes of the past or feel that they cannot learn anything from the elite that came before them. It concerns me when closed mindedness keeps the student of the gun from honestly understanding how some of the very best got it done. This closed minded “exclusive” approach only gives the student a partial view of the reality of the world of gunfighting. If you do not know about the skill sets that some of the greatest gunfighters used, then you do not know the history of gunfighting. If you do not know the history of gunfighting, then you do not know what has been extremely successful.

    Read more here

  4. #78
    VIP Member Array glockman10mm's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2010
    Location
    Kentucky
    Posts
    8,566
    SweatnBullets, seems like some pretty harsh words and emotion in that last post. I hope you hold it together a little better if you do ever get into a real fight.

    This is typical of what I have seen over the last year. When anyone has an alternative point of view, other than the what you preach, they are attacked. So who is arrogant?

    Now you are saying the object is not to put rounds on target. I'll call this alot of double talk.
    "the perfect balance to hit and not be hit" , well now, in the reality of bullets flying both ways, that's a good idea, but taking into consideration , stuff happens, wouldn't it be a good idea to minimize the damage you recieve? And what about the barrage of bullets that completely miss the threat, or does this high speed load drag training also guarrentee you will never miss in a real situation?

    Of course I don't expect answers or dialogue on the issue. Just more attacks followed by more posted propaganda by at least 4 or 5 Suarez instructors meant to shut me up and reinforce the idea that they are the only ones who have the answers.

    As far as my"secret" technique, as you call it, I will be posting a video in the near future, for the people here to view and critique. What they choose is up to them, but I believe in many cases it may be a better option for some people. I do not claim it to be the only one, or the best. But in my opinion, it is better than what I have seen in your video.

    Now, I would also like to meet with any or all of you at a time in the near future, and compare these, as I am willing to let what I know and have learned stand under scrutiny and stand on it's own merit.
    Ignorance is a long way from stupid, but left unchecked, can get there real fast.

  5. #79
    Member Array Gsolutions's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2011
    Location
    Orange County, CA
    Posts
    70
    Apparently raising questions and pointing out proven facts is an attack. From all I can tell I can probably look at a Lenny Magill Video from the late 90's and find your technique.

    If your material is what I think it is and given the fact that you teach material where getting hit is to be expected, I'd be interested to know what kind of medical skills you teach your students. Based of the boundary conditions you introduced, this would be the prudent approach.

    Anyhow - I see a lot of contradictions, very little valuable content and a lot of don't-bother-me-with-the-facts-my-mind-is-made-up attitude.

    And on the point of Suarez International instructors participating in this thread: Why do we have so many instructors? Because the material is successful and proven.
    Sucessful enough that in 2009 Roger Phillips trained roughly half of the then over 20 staff instructors to cover the demand for the point shooting material. I have yet to see a negative feedback from a student that went to one of these classes.
    Uli Gebhard
    Suarez International Staff Instructor California
    ----------------------------------------------------------
    www.gebhardsolutions.com

  6. #80
    Moderator
    Array bmcgilvray's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2007
    Location
    Texas
    Posts
    9,895
    "The lady doth protest too much, methinks."

    Queen Gertrude in "Hamlet" by William Shakespeare



    The more you Suarez folks participate in this thread the less convincing your bombast becomes. There is real value in heeding the adage "quit while you are ahead." I'm not against training and taking advantage of the many worthwhile courses that are available to the interested shooter. It is amazing though that people are willing to pay money to be force-fed your particular brand of Kool-Aid, all served up with your patronizing superiority.

    I'm not even against point shooting which has its place. That video in the earlier link is still foolish and irresponsible though.
    “No possible rapidity of fire can atone for habitual carelessness of aim with the first shot.”

    Theodore Roosevelt, The Wilderness Hunter, 1893

  7. #81
    Senior Member Array CR Williams's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2011
    Location
    Alabama
    Posts
    590
    glockman10mm, thank you for a better explanation of your evasive movement. That is one that we teach as an option where space to move to most other clock directions is limited, such as hallways or in-between cars in a parking lot. We don't consider it a default response where space allows for a full displacement.
    My cats support the Second Amendment.

    www.inshadowinlight.com

    "Oh, bother," said Pooh as he rocked another mag into the 556R...

  8. #82
    VIP Member Array glockman10mm's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2010
    Location
    Kentucky
    Posts
    8,566
    Gsolutions, it is not that I want to be shot, or expect it to happen. But it could happen. And if it does I want to minimize the damage done. I think that is good common sense.

    I am not a formal instructor. I do not own an instructional business. I have never desired to do this for a living. I respect those who do, however, what I have seen, experienced, and been taught, have led me to a different mindset.
    It is irresponsible in my opinion, to allow people to believe that any technique, in any discipline, is full proof.

    You may, despite doing everything correctley, being faster, a better shooter, or have a bigger gun, take a hit.
    Even as dumb as Mike Tyson was , he understood this, when he stated, and I quote, " everyone has a plan, till they get hit in the mouth".

    It's really a choice of choosing your defensive strategy.
    Ignorance is a long way from stupid, but left unchecked, can get there real fast.

  9. #83
    VIP Member Array glockman10mm's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2010
    Location
    Kentucky
    Posts
    8,566
    CR Williams, you are welcome. I cannot claim credit for this technique, as there were others who participated in it's development, and it appears from what I am hearing are other variations out there.

    Of all the things I have learned over the years, this is my number1, due to it's versatility in a wide array of situations.
    Ignorance is a long way from stupid, but left unchecked, can get there real fast.

  10. #84
    Member Array Gsolutions's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2011
    Location
    Orange County, CA
    Posts
    70
    Quote Originally Posted by glockman10mm View Post
    [...]You may, despite doing everything correctley, being faster, a better shooter, or have a bigger gun, take a hit.
    Even as dumb as Mike Tyson was , he understood this, when he stated, and I quote, " everyone has a plan, till they get hit in the mouth".
    [...].
    That's why we teach after-action-assessments that include a self-check.
    Uli Gebhard
    Suarez International Staff Instructor California
    ----------------------------------------------------------
    www.gebhardsolutions.com

  11. #85
    Distinguished Member Array Bill MO's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2006
    Location
    Missouri
    Posts
    1,389
    Quote Originally Posted by glockman10mm View Post
    Now you are saying the object is not to put rounds on target. I'll call this alot of double talk.
    "the perfect balance to hit and not be hit" , well now, in the reality of bullets flying both ways, that's a good idea, but taking into consideration , stuff happens, wouldn't it be a good idea to minimize the damage you recieve? And what about the barrage of bullets that completely miss the threat, or does this high speed load drag training also guarrentee you will never miss in a real situation?
    glockman, from this part of your post I am hearing that you still think this all to be a spray and pray type drill and shooting. From what I have seen with my own shooting, and I am only a student. While there is no guarantees when you send rounds down range in a gun fight my success of hits versus misses is better with the point shooting than with sighted fire while moving at the speed needed to upset the BGs OODA loop. I know you don't like the fast moving to the sides and running around but from what FOF has shown me it works. You say it is not safe, then in all the classes done by Roger where are all the reports of injuries from unsafe gun handling? I'm 62 year old and I also move around, not as fast, but still I move and do not feel unsafe in doing so. Also if you go to WarriorTalk.com and look at all the reviews of Roger's PSP classes you will see that most everyone liked and thought they learned lots of good information. This is an open forum therefore all can sign up and post both good and bad. I can not remember seeing any one post a neg.

    From what I understand of the quote "the perfect balance to hit and not be hit". You move at a speed that YOU can make good accurate hits and as fast as YOU can move (and make hits) to keep from getting hit. While I am slower than Roger there are some, not many but a few, who make Roger look slow.

    In the video linked to here Roger was pushing things close to his max, but he says he only missed the target once. And yes because I know him I do believe that to the true. Why be cause I have seen Roger shot in class and know what I myself can do.
    It's gotta be who you are, not a hobby. reinman45

    "Is this persons bad behavior worth me having to kill them over?" Guantes

  12. #86
    VIP Member Array glockman10mm's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2010
    Location
    Kentucky
    Posts
    8,566
    Quote Originally Posted by Bill MO View Post
    glockman, from this part of your post I am hearing that you still think this all to be a spray and pray type drill and shooting. From what I have seen with my own shooting, and I am only a student. While there is no guarantees when you send rounds down range in a gun fight my success of hits versus misses is better with the point shooting than with sighted fire while moving at the speed needed to upset the BGs OODA loop. I know you don't like the fast moving to the sides and running around but from what FOF has shown me it works. You say it is not safe, then in all the classes done by Roger where are all the reports of injuries from unsafe gun handling? I'm 62 year old and I also move around, not as fast, but still I move and do not feel unsafe in doing so. Also if you go to WarriorTalk.com and look at all the reviews of Roger's PSP classes you will see that most everyone liked and thought they learned lots of good information. This is an open forum therefore all can sign up and post both good and bad. I can not remember seeing any one post a neg.

    From what I understand of the quote "the perfect balance to hit and not be hit". You move at a speed that YOU can make go accurate hits and as fast as YOU can move (and make hits) to keep from getting hit. While I am slower than Roger there are some, not many but a few, who make Roger look slow.

    In the video linked to here Roger was pushing things close to his max, but he says he only missed the target once. And yes because I know him I do believe that to the true. Why be cause I have seen Roger shot in class and know what I myself can do.
    Hi Bill, thanks for your conversation on this issue. I know it may come across as that I believe its spray and pray they are teaching, but i know its really not. But when it goes down , thats what it turns into. Video after video and report after report I have seen and read tell the same story. I understand that you only shoot as fast as you can go during training, but when the adrenilin really gets pumping, so does the trigger finger. In many instances, people think they have only fired a few shots, when they have actually fired many more.

    Moreover, if you closely watch the video, (and I realize its for instructional purposes only, and I am not judging their entire program from one video but making observations) when he goes to reload his weapon, he takes his eyes off the target and looks down as he reloads. Now I realize its just a training video, but if training reinforces proper action, than as many times as he has probably performed a reload, he should not have looked at the weapon. I know this is considered nit picking, but I am an attention to detail type of person, and its little things that tell us alot.

    But, you seem to enjoy and have bought in to their training, and I think that is great. I am sure that there are many useful things to be learned, and I in no way can say anything about there program or other training techniques. The only issue I have with them is the way they come across with anyone who has an opposing point of view, or disagrees with anypart of anything they espouse. I think they are pompous, arrogant, and full of themselves.

    So to conclude this, I have to say that I am not in the ninja mode anymore, and havent been for some time. I have done the years of training required by my agency, been a part of it, ate and breathed it for a long time, and this not including my military service. To be truthful, I nowadays rather enjoy a plinking session with my grand kids, or a shooting my 38 spl in an impromtu shooting session with my wife. When I looked back, I realize I wasted alot of time living to be a "warrior" and not enough time living. There is only so much you really need to know, and it will serve you well.
    Good luck with your future endeavors, as Forrest Gump would say, "thats all I got to say about that".
    Ignorance is a long way from stupid, but left unchecked, can get there real fast.

  13. #87
    Distinguished Member Array Bill MO's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2006
    Location
    Missouri
    Posts
    1,389
    glockman one thing, when I said I was slower than Roger I referred to my feet and the moving. As to trigger speed I am right there with Roger and still making the hits. I have no idea how many rounds I have fired, I fire until slide lock then draw second pistol or reload. Speed of trigger has to do with the distance. That can not be seen or learned from watching a short clip. So there we are with we only know what we know. I also look at other instructors videos and I am not impressed with what I see compared to what I know to be taught at SI. I think it has a lot to do with your being satisfied already with what you know and have learned. That's why there are many school of firearms training out there.

    As to what you see in SI Instructors I do not see any more than in other Instructors from other schools. I have to say I have seen some of what you say is in them in your own posts also. Most likely there has been some in my posts too. I think it was you who posted that firearms training was a lot like politics and religion, we all have it in our heads what it is and should be and we all defend that belief. Again to each his own.

    With that I say stay safe.
    It's gotta be who you are, not a hobby. reinman45

    "Is this persons bad behavior worth me having to kill them over?" Guantes

  14. #88
    Sponsor Array DCJS Instructor's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2006
    Location
    CONUS
    Posts
    431
    Quote Originally Posted by DonR101395 View Post
    What does any of this have to do with what Roger is teaching? Unless the instructor you're talking about was Roger; it's totally irrelevant information.

    irrelevant information? I was talking about training in general.....

    It appears to be just another attempt to throw out that you do SOCOM contract instruction and are therefore somehow anointed with greater knowledge of point shooting. The two are mutually exclusive endeavors. If you don't run open enrollment then the information is useless to the average Joe. Maybe some folks are impressed with the SOCOM connection........
    I never said SOCOM in any post here?.......

    However since you brought it up Yes we do driving, shooting and medical pre-deployment and sustainment training under contract for MARSOC/SOCOM.

    However I did see this about you...."Don Robison lives in the Northwest Florida area, after spending most of his life traveling the world with the US Air Force Special Operations Command. During his 24 years of military service, he has trained/and trained with, the Special Operations forces of every branch of the US military, and many foreign SOF forces."

    I do teach open enrollment....However at this time I am spread thin and the contracts that I have signed take priority.

    Here is the deal....I did not and do not agree with the video I saw.....If you don't want it critiqued don't put it on the internet.

    I want students/people to question and challenge what I teach. If I say do this or do that and they say why? And I can't give a good answer then I should not teach it.

    If they are sceptical....I say come try it for free...I put my money where my mouth is....

    If nothing else this section/post has created a lot of discussion...That is a good thing in my opinion.

    Just remember internet advice is worth what you pay for it.....

    Stay Safe-Shoot Straight!

    P.S. I'm going to read more post less from now on!

  15. #89
    Member Array nick060200's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2011
    Location
    PA
    Posts
    156
    this thread is better than whats on TV
    There is no hunting like the hunting of man, and those who have hunted armed men long enough and liked it, never care for anything else thereafter.

  16. #90
    Sponsor Array DCJS Instructor's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2006
    Location
    CONUS
    Posts
    431
    Glockman,

    As a former LEO myself thank you for your service to the community! If you are not teaching you should...You have an open invite to teach at any of my facilities In Virginia, Maryland or North Carolina.

    Stay Safe & Shoot Straight!

    Tom Perroni

Page 6 of 7 FirstFirst ... 234567 LastLast

Links

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •  

Search tags for this page

combat accuracy

,

combat accuracy and shot placement

,

combat shot placement

,
definition of combat accuracy
,
general robison marsoc commander
,
hitting the medulla oblongata
,
meaning of combat accuracy
,
police combat accuracy
,
roger phillips combat accuracy
,
shot placement to hit apricot
,
what defines combat accuracy
,

what is combat accuracy

Click on a term to search for related topics.