What Does Competency Mean To You? - Page 2

What Does Competency Mean To You?

This is a discussion on What Does Competency Mean To You? within the Defensive Carry & Tactical Training forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; Thank you all so far. For me competency is 3 fold: Toolset —your equipment and your being able to handle it (safely, properly) and keep ...

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  1. #16
    Distinguished Member Array claude clay's Avatar
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    Thank you all so far.
    For me competency is 3 fold:

    Toolset—your equipment and your being able to handle it (safely, properly) and keep it running
    (maintenance, clear jams).

    Skillset—which Cruel Hand Luke came closest to me —competency starts when you are able to, from concealment-- at the threat draw and double tap COM in under 2 seconds. Truly Skilled is a modified Mozambique:
    Set up as 3 targets at 3, 5 and 7 yards and from the threat (buzzer) you draw and double tap COM each target in under 1.5 seconds. Local figure 8-track driver vs NASCAR and

    Mindset—which id like to borrow from RoadRunner--a competent carrier is one who understands deescalation, patience, can critically think of scenarios and the ramifications of his/her actions should s/he decide to act, they understand laws and pass up being showy and confrontational for being the man in the shadows. They will stand there and take insults all day (even insults to wives/husbands/family/country) knowing they aren't worth a life. But they understand the willingness to live and to fight when they are actually lethally threatened.


    Given that you have the right tool for the job, and can use it as it was designed, Mindset is the most critical of the three. It also may be expressed in one word-- maturity.

    No student of mine in 20 odd years has left me till they were competent. And it seldom took more than 3 lessons, 8 hours over 6 weeks and 600 rounds. it ain’t that hard

    Please keep your answers coming, Im hearing some things in 2011 that were not talked about 40 years ago. The basics are the same but equipment sure is different today. So to are some ways of thinking. For the moment i am not saying good or bad, just different. Learning is an ongoing process, so help me out here.
    Thank you, CC
    Last edited by claude clay; June 10th, 2011 at 05:02 PM. Reason: terminology
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  2. #17
    VIP Member Array Guantes's Avatar
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    I would consider competency in the realm of a handgun as the attributes necessary to apply lethal force with a handgun in a moral, legal, effective and efficient manner. I realize that this is a rather general description, but competent is a rather general term. Once one ascends above those basic parameters, the amount of ascension will determine the elevation above competent.

    CC,
    Perhaps you would be good enough to clarify something for me. It has been my understanding that a Mozambique/Failure To Stop Drill consisted of a draw followed by two shots to com, then one shot to the head on a single target. The drill that you describe as a "Mozambique" sounds more akin to half of an El Presidente Drill.
    Thanks
    "I do what I do." Cpl 'coach' Bowden, "Southern Comfort".

  3. #18
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    Know your firearm...understand the firearm carry rules of your state...understand SA...try to practice or take a multi-day course, if possible.
    It would be nice if you could do this... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CsLx5ISBXw4
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  4. #19
    Senior Member Array adric22's Avatar
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    i'm pretty satisfied with the level of requirement by my state to get a CHL. it isn't hard but obviously you do have to understand the law and know how to use your gun. Take my wife, for example. She has a CHL, but is not the best shot in the world. at 15 yards her group is all over the target where mine is a nice area about the size of a DVD. no problem, shooting for me is a hobby. For her the gun is simply a tool much like her computer or her car. I would not be in favor of raising the standards because I do not believe the majority of the time a concealed handgun is used would require a lot of marksmanship. I'd rather have a ton of law abiding citizens who were just "acceptable" in their profeciency walking around than just a handfull of experts.

    I admit we both need to do some more practice on clearing malfunctions and drawing. now that I have that replica BB gun I mentioned in another post, I plan to use that to practice drawing and firing at home. Most shooting ranges won't allow this. And the great thing about the replica is that it does have a blowback slide and it is neccessary to rack the slide. So i can practice doing that as part of the draw.

  5. #20
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    My very first thought is that you actually meant the word "competence" which common misuse has degraded into "competency." But my alter ego is Grammar Nazi, so that's just me exercising the language. Your meaning was clear.

    One of the common definitions of competence is "adequacy." As others have alluded, this could be a simple as being able to work the gun and hit the target. I would equate "competence" with the minimum skill set and experience necessary for both. "Highly competent" in my mind means "skilled".
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  6. #21
    Distinguished Member Array claude clay's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Guantes View Post

    CC,
    Perhaps you would be good enough to clarify something for me. It has been my understanding that a Mozambique/Failure To Stop Drill consisted of a draw followed by two shots to com, then one shot to the head on a single target. The drill that you describe as a "Mozambique" sounds more akin to half of an El Presidente Drill.
    Thanks
    i stand corrected.
    truth be known i am vague on exactly what means what by the many books that are often quoted to me ( that i have never read) but i know what works and why.
    from IDPA, SASS, Bullseye...etc i have a sorta understanding of the many drills names.
    i go along to get along. i use elements from various techniques as i fit them into how i need them. and of course, as terminology is necessary to NRA Basic Pistol.
    after that i set up drills to challenge me and/ or to bring out what a student needs to figure out.

    and again Guantes, i was incorrect in the use of that term. i need to type what is right more so than how i 'see' it in action.
    Arthritis sucks big-big
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  7. #22
    VIP Member Array Guantes's Avatar
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    Thank you for the clarification.
    "I do what I do." Cpl 'coach' Bowden, "Southern Comfort".

  8. #23
    Member Array Cruel Hand Luke's Avatar
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    Claude Clay,

    And for the sake of further clarification....on your drill, it is 3yds 5 yds and 7 yds double tap ALL 3 IN ONE STRING OF 6 shots, from concealment, in a SECOND AND A HALF? I'd suggest that is probably a bit more than "skilled".

    I'm not saying it is not possible, but if the draw and first shot time(from concealment) is pretty quick (+-.75 of a second to the first shot at the 3 yard target), and the split time is around +-.15 for the second shot, then that just leaves +- .6 of a second to fire the next 2 shots at 5 AND then the next 2 at 7. That is not much time to work with.

    I'll have to set that up and run it with a timer, but it sounds (and I may be wrong) like it would be very difficult to make that time with any regularity unless we count ANY hit on the target as a good hit.

    So I can set it up properly, what kind of traget are you using (IDPA? IPSC??) and how far are they spaced left to right? And are we counting hits anywhere on the target or do they have to be A zone(IPSC) or -0(IDPA)?
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  9. #24
    Member Array Snider's Avatar
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    In the IT/computer world, there are organizations not unlike the NRA who promote best practices, and help "certify" those who chose to structure their organizations to match the standards set forth. It would surely be nice to have a standardized testing system for bronze/silver/gold grade competency, and have it be a comprehensive test. I have yet to invest the time and money on training for force on force, tactical handgun defense, etc. So I have no suggestions for what that test might entail, honestly, but I do think it's fairly impossible to fully simulate the emotional and mental state of a true life or death scenario, so no certification will actually be a valid test of any person.

    There is not enough mental conditioning and training in this world to convert a person who simply panics in a bad situation into a cold, calculating, killing machine, in my opinion. But it might be possible to bring them to the middle of the road, to generate enough muscle memory and correct mental processes to be competent in a disastrous situation. And in that vein, I think a so-called core competency certification would certainly be a nice option.

    I'm with the many other posters here, mandating this wouldn't fit with my view of freedoms we hold dear. As an optional, available certification, I'd be incredibly happy to see a nationally accepted, standardized, widely practiced and available testing system.

  10. #25
    VIP Member Array farronwolf's Avatar
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    I think you all have hit the major points. Lima makes a strong argument for the mental competency vs, the physical one. It all goes hand in hand.

    If someone is a great gunman, but doesn't know the laws of their state or doesn't have the proper mindset they are falling short, and visa versa. It takes all of it to be competent. Texas has a pretty good balance in their process. You must do your part and attend a 10+hr class, hopefully getting a good instructor and passing the written and shooting proficiency. I have had both new and renewal students fail the proficiency portion. I find it very hard to understand how, but it has happened.

    However, once we are done with the entire class, everyone has everything they need, I have them watch the video of Lance Thomas. YouTube - ‪Real Gunfighter Lance Thomas on Justic Files‬‏

    If you haven't watched it, it is well worth it. If you have, heck I still enjoy seeing it after dozens and dozens of viewings. He emphasizes a lot of the points others have already hit upon in this thread. My comments to them after they view it, are that the plastic card they will receive from the state should be just the begining of the CHL process, that they need to think hard about it and continue to train ect so they are proficient in all aspect of CHL.
    Stubborn and JDE101 like this.
    Just remember that shot placement is much more important with what you carry than how big a bang you get with each trigger pull.
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  11. #26
    Distinguished Member Array Stubborn's Avatar
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    That was a great clip "farronwolf" I had never seen it before.
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  12. #27
    VIP Member Array JDE101's Avatar
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    Farronwolf, great clip! I hadn't seen it before and it is well worth watching!
    Live to ride, ride to live. Harley Road King And keep a .45 handy Kimber Custom TLE II

  13. #28
    Distinguished Member Array claude clay's Avatar
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    Luke—hi again, the 3 IDPA cardboard targets are in any order at 3, 5 and 7 yards (near to far may be LCR or CRL etc). Mix it up so you don’t start reacting to a pattern. They might touch, they may overlap or one may be 3 feet from the other 2. Mix it up. At the buzzer, draw from concealment and engage in any order 2 shots each. A target is considered neutralized with a score of 8 or more points. So, 1 shot has to be COM or head (5 points) and the other may be a 3 or a 5. My splits are typically .09 to .11 and the 1st shot is under.8. sometimes I’ll mark one target w/ a hostage so it has to be a head shot—than one head in ‘my’ book is an 8. The art of the draw is a 3000 repetitions to get it smooth as silk. Its broken into 7 discreet steps. Just keep thinking “ smooth is good”---smooth will naturally morph into fast. No need to rush it on your part.

    1.5 is fast and regionally that makes me usually one of the top 3 shooters... as an aside—my daughter said to type that cause according to her ( a college grad no less) “it ain’t bragging if you can do it”


    farronwolf—great vid—he speaks for me. And from 7.20 to the end should be watched over again and again by everyone till you thoroughly understand him. He speaks volumes in so few minutes. All the prep and practice in the world is for naught if you are not of the mindset that taking a life, or yours is what can and does happen. and without lots of proper practice, your life raft has a big hole in it. thus having is not the same as saving.

    Me here—wonder if you have the right mindset?
    Short of an actual event with a gun ( it works so well that often just having it and a plan precludes having to actually fire it) think back to a bad auto accident and critique your actions before, during and after the crash. And as you ramp up your SA over the years you will have fewer auto accidents. But that’s a side effect of SA and your mindset.
    And if the accident left you poorly, there are ways to re-learn your bodies use of adrenaline; to make it work for you. But that’s another story...
    Arthritis sucks big-big
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  14. #29
    Member Array Cruel Hand Luke's Avatar
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    I'll set it up and see what I get.


    I'd say however that doing this drill in 1.5 seconds (with any regularity) is far and away more than just "skilled". In fact that is probably bordering on "world class". I can't garauntee that I can do it in 1.5 but I'll give it a try.
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  15. #30
    VIP Member Array MitchellCT's Avatar
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    To considered competent, at a minimum, pass Massad Ayoob's MAG-20 Live Fire class or an equivalent class, and a force on force class of at least 8 hours.

    Be able to run your weapon, draw and shoot acurately and fairly quickly, clear malfunctions, move/transition to different positions, have a good understanding of the laws of lethal force, and have gotten a force on force class under your belt to drill into your head that the use of lethal force is NOT an activity you want to ever engage in because doesn't matter how good you are - you can still die fairly easily when things go bad.

    Then you are competent.

    CIA/Special Action Group material? Maybe not.

    But competent that you are more a danger to the people you want to be a danger to than the people you want to protect.

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