Force On Force Training?

This is a discussion on Force On Force Training? within the Defensive Carry & Tactical Training forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; It is easy for instructors to tell their students “do it this way because it works” or “in a real gun fight this will keep ...

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    Member Array Britbiker's Avatar
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    Force On Force Training?

    It is easy for instructors to tell their students “do it this way because it works” or “in a real gun fight this will keep you alive” but it is truly hard to “prove” one technique over another. Most established “gun fighting techniques” are taken from combining statistics of what did or did not work in LEO, military and some civilian fights, combining them and then making conclusions…..its really the only way to do it right?

    If you could be taught techniques that you could then put into practice and actually “prove” what does and does not work for YOU……in YOUR situation, with YOUR chosen weapons and environments, why would you not do it?

    So do you currently train force on force? If so how?

    For those that have not done so yet, you might want to look into what force on force training is available in your area.

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  3. #2
    VIP Member Array MitchellCT's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Britbiker View Post

    So do you currently train force on force? If so how?
    I do it as often as I can beg & pay my way into training.

    Make your mistakes when it's not for real...you still may screw up when it is real, or even do everything right but still die because of someone or something you didn't know was in play...

    But you shade the odds your way with experience and education.
    Long Ranger likes this.

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    VIP Member Array Harryball's Avatar
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    I do force on force as often as I can. Timing and funds also play a role. In any training you must be consistent and thru that you will become efficient..
    Don"t let stupid be your skill set....

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    VIP Member Array shockwave's Avatar
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    In my school, we train for this constantly.

    There's defense against gun, against knife, and a drill we call "monkey in the middle."

    With the gun, we practice defense against it getting jammed against you from any angle and pointed at you from typical mugging distances. With the knife, the toughest scenario is someone grabbing you by the collar, shoving the blade at your throat and slamming you against a wall, and Monkey in the Middle is 5 or 6 on 1.

    All scenarios are practiced with you unarmed, and both straight and also blindfolded. The important thing is regular practice so that your responses are grooved, kinesthetically trained until you react faster than you can think your way through. That's the key to this sort of thing.

    The moment an attack happens, you want to be moving in the best defensive posture as an automatic, reflexive maneuver. There's always a way out if you move right.

    One thing we've proven to ourselves is that if a person wants to kill you, they're going to do it. There's no defense against a trained assassin. If the attacker wants you to do something - to comply in some regard, then you can win by going off the script.
    "It may seem difficult at first, but everything is difficult at first."

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    Distinguished Member Array claude clay's Avatar
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    it is why i keep training 1-1 or spouses together. work with the individual and allow their natural abilities to be re-inforced. make corrections and additions to their basic ways.
    the Army and larger classes have to deal with groups and go with what works best for the many.
    i enjoy teaching and do not push the price as one might expect. there are so many aspects to SD and SA is a big part of it. as is properly fitted equipment and the training to have it work for you when you need it. much can be done with exercises at home and brief meeting with me as needed. coupled with some 'intensified work....it typically takes 10 hours over 3 or 4 meetings lasting 6 months. this gets you from -0- to competent. past that I'll work with you as long as there is room for improvement.

    -------------

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    is my closing line on my brag sheet for 20 years. i've seen it in a lot of places and it was twisted a bit from wild bill i believe--'you have to be slow in a hurry" long live good sayings
    Be aware, be deliberate in your actions and be accurate.
    -------------------
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    Distinguished Member Array TSiWRX's Avatar
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    Like the others who have posted, I also do it when I can - and yes, I make it a point to try.

    I know, I know, one should "make time" for what's truly important...and it's hard to argue that this kind of training can well potentially be life-saving. But in the real-world, it's often not quite that easy.

    For the next two months, I've signed up (and paid) for no less than 32 hours of professionally-taught martial training. Nearly half of that will be for defensive pistolcraft, but there's also shotgun as well as knife-work. and nearly a third will incorporate F-o-F as a part of the coursework. I pretty much double the cost of any course I take because I need to find childcare for my daughter for those hours when I'm away: quality babysitting isn't cheap. But what really complicates things is that I've got to fit this into our family's schedule, both personally as well as professionally.

    So, I try.

    What I like about Force-on-Force is that it takes those mental-games of the "what if" scenarios, and makes them solidly true-to-life. It takes away the idealizations of what "should" happen, and since the participants of the training scenario are real-life-humans, it interjects a level of uncertainty and fluidity into the training that's otherwise not possible, no matter how good the programming of an AI or how detailed a script.

    The Force-on-Force that I've been exposed to so far (currently, all for defensive pistolcraft, but that's about to change very soon, given what I've enrolled for in the coming months) utilized RAM training guns utilizing the hard rubber, non-marking, rounds (it was easy enough to verify hits, they're painful enough that it keeps everyone honest ). We had holsters as well as carriers for the spare "mags" (the sole area where I thought that the RAMs could have been improved upon), and there was both a shoot-house as well as an open area to stage various scenarios, with the training-session's participants acting out the roles, under the direction of the instructor.

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    Distinguished Member Array claude clay's Avatar
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    those mental-games and strips them of the way we think things are to the way it is. big difference as reality is a giant what-if with the score often measured by if you walk away or are carried.

    from instructors who have lived events, had occurrences that allowed for them to compare their readiness vs what does/did occur.
    what aspect of your training/preparedness was correct--and in what ways vs what reality did that was not anticipated--and again, good training will have taken you over the strange part of the event with elements from various training sceneries put together in 'odd' ways.

    much can be talked about concerning something that may have been over almost as soon as it started. but the in-between was a long time stretched as Einstein would describe our perception of time/events.
    Last edited by claude clay; July 4th, 2011 at 08:48 PM.
    Be aware, be deliberate in your actions and be accurate.
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    Why do those elected to positions of power than work so hard
    to deny those same opportunities to the same people who empowered them

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    VIP Member Array MitchellCT's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TSiWRX View Post
    What I like about Force-on-Force is that it takes those mental-games of the "what if" scenarios, and makes them solidly true-to-life. It takes away the idealizations of what "should" happen, and since the participants of the training scenario are real-life-humans, it interjects a level of uncertainty and fluidity into the training that's otherwise not possible, no matter how good the programming of an AI or how detailed a script.
    All the "what if" stuff goes out the window when you see muzzle flashes of the blank adapted AR aimed at you...

    It may not be for real...but any more real and it would be...

    Bad.

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    VIP Member Array shockwave's Avatar
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    I've signed up (and paid) for no less than 32 hours of professionally-taught martial training
    Keep in mind that 32 hours is not very much. This stuff starts to work when you're talking years. Daily training gives you 7 or so hours a week, plus class time which adds a few more. That's around 1000 hours a year, year on year.
    TSiWRX likes this.
    "It may seem difficult at first, but everything is difficult at first."

  11. #10
    Distinguished Member Array TSiWRX's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MitchellCT View Post
    All the "what if" stuff goes out the window when you see muzzle flashes of the blank adapted AR aimed at you...

    It may not be for real...but any more real and it would be...

    Bad.
    I agree completely - in the heart of the scenario, everything else fades. The "what ifs" flash through my mind all at seemingly the same time - and then, as we both noted, sometimes completely takes a change.

    Exactly, it's not for-real. But any more real, and it would seriously be bad. I'd rather find out about the errors I'm prone to making and the errors that I have already made (i.e. my mind/eye/body not being in the right place, gear in the wrong position, or a bad selection of gear, period, etc.) while in such training, then when out on the streets.

    Quote Originally Posted by shockwave View Post
    Keep in mind that 32 hours is not very much. This stuff starts to work when you're talking years. Daily training gives you 7 or so hours a week, plus class time which adds a few more. That's around 1000 hours a year, year on year.
    Agreed, 32 hours is not that much at all. I bought my first firearm back in November, and to-date, have logged about 40 hours. Even adding in my upcoming training, it's a really small time-span, with, like you've said, only a few day's worth of courses adding up to that total. While I think that's decent for a beginner, I know that in the grand scheme of things, it's really nothing at all, particularly as much of it is simply (albeit tremendously important) the fundamentals. The point of my having brought up that number, I'm afraid I did not explain clearly enough :embarrassed: , was not to suggest that it was either a lot of work or "good enough," rather, it was to illustrate the difficulty with which some may encounter in getting the training - and that the expense goes beyond the registration fees or ammo costs.

    In what now seems to be my past life (), I was actually decently competent in my chosen martial art. I remember the *endless* hours of practice that I devoted to the craft. The hours of classroom instruction - including being thrown around on the mats and punched and kicked - paled in contrast to the many more hours I devoted to solo-practice at home. With firearms, I'm currently practicing at home, in terms of dry-fire, basic manipulation, movement, etc., literally "whenever I can." It's often 5 or 10 minutes here and there, but that here-and-there adds-up, and I think that as long as I strive to "do it right," it's better than not doing it, at all.

    Force-on-Force, however and sadly, is a different story.....

    With Force-on-Force, in terms of integrating firearms, locally, I have yet to see this offering in anything but a "seminar" format (whether it is a one-day devoted class or incorporated into a part of a class with a more firearms-oriented goal), but then again, I'm still a beginner, and I might either find something, yet, or talk one of the instructors in our local area into setting up a more regular meet of this type (my preferred instructor already has a regular "Combatives" meet, stressing hand-to-hand and knife skills - my goal is to make that class a weekly attendance for myself this August, when my daughter's new school-schedule will have settled our family into a different routine for the next few years - I think that he would be more than amenable to incorporating the type of training that you've portrayed, above).

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    Member Array Britbiker's Avatar
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    Repetitive training is the key (IMHO) to any kind of defensive training. Base elements of FOF should be incorporated into your regular practice sessions along with at least 2 or 3 additional classes / courses / training opportunities with instructors to take you out of your comfort zone and push your buttons.

    To me FOF is fundamental to carrying a handgun or knife on the street. Statistically you assailants are going to be close, CQB techniques are going to be used. One handed draw and operation of the weapon of choice along with movement, defensive and offensive movements, high stress decision making process and communication are all going to be needed. So if we know these are the skills that are most likely going to be needed, should we not incorporate them into ALL our training?

    Quote Originally Posted by TSiWRX View Post
    With Force-on-Force, in terms of integrating firearms, locally, I have yet to see this offering in anything but a "seminar" format (whether it is a one-day devoted class or incorporated into a part of a class with a more firearms-oriented goal), but then again, I'm still a beginner, and I might either find something, yet, or talk one of the instructors in our local area into setting up a more regular meet of this type (my preferred instructor already has a regular "Combatives" meet, stressing hand-to-hand and knife skills - my goal is to make that class a weekly attendance for myself this August, when my daughter's new school-schedule will have settled our family into a different routine for the next few years - I think that he would be more than amenable to incorporating the type of training that you've portrayed, above).
    There are companies (qualified instructors) out there offering the training. You just have to search them out. If you can not find anything locally, take a vaction down to Florida and join one of our classes.

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    New Member Array bobhostetter's Avatar
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    Britbiker,


    I went to the website you have listed at the bottom of your post to check out your school. I noticed that your instructors weren't really identified nor were their resumes posted. Care to offer this important infomation to the rest of us?

    bob

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    Distinguished Member Array TSiWRX's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Britbiker View Post
    Repetitive training is the key (IMHO) to any kind of defensive training. Base elements of FOF should be incorporated into your regular practice sessions along with at least 2 or 3 additional classes / courses / training opportunities with instructors to take you out of your comfort zone and push your buttons.

    To me FOF is fundamental to carrying a handgun or knife on the street. Statistically you assailants are going to be close, CQB techniques are going to be used. One handed draw and operation of the weapon of choice along with movement, defensive and offensive movements, high stress decision making process and communication are all going to be needed. So if we know these are the skills that are most likely going to be needed, should we not incorporate them into ALL our training?
    Agreed, and that's actually why I like the main instructor/school I've chosen so much - in that they place a heavy emphasis on H2H.

    Once I start their routine "Combatives Conditioning" meets, I'll then be able to see exactly how much firearms are integrated into their F-o-F. Currently, I know it's H2H and knife-heavy.

    There are companies (qualified instructors) out there offering the training. You just have to search them out. If you can not find anything locally, take a vaction down to Florida and join one of our classes.
    ^ That's actually what I meant, in my citing the number of hours of paid professional training I've sought since November. The problem for me - and others like me - is that while the actual cost of the training (including ammo, travel, etc.) is typically not prohibitive, the secondary costs are heavy, and at-times un-doable. For me to take a class, I need to work out my professional schedule with that of m wife's, and then make sure that we've got child-care coverage: this means planning months in advance, even for a single-day course, and the cost of child-care typically doubles my actual expenditure for the course.

    I'm currently trying to plan my next year's schedule, so that I can take full-weekend courses at TDI, which is itself geographically closer than some of the other schools which I want to, at some point, attend.

    One of my local trainers/schools does offer somewhat more routine dedicated F-o-F seminars, and I have begun a relationship with this trainer/school, and depending on how things go, will hopefully be able to pursue it on a more regular basis.

    For me, getting two or three (or more) "seminars" aren't the problem ...it's the more regular practice that, at the current moment, has a vacancy.

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    VIP Member Array Harryball's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TSiWRX View Post
    Agreed, and that's actually why I like the main instructor/school I've chosen so much - in that they place a heavy emphasis on H2H.

    Once I start their routine "Combatives Conditioning" meets, I'll then be able to see exactly how much firearms are integrated into their F-o-F. Currently, I know it's H2H and knife-heavy.



    ^ That's actually what I meant, in my citing the number of hours of paid professional training I've sought since November. The problem for me - and others like me - is that while the actual cost of the training (including ammo, travel, etc.) is typically not prohibitive, the secondary costs are heavy, and at-times un-doable. For me to take a class, I need to work out my professional schedule with that of m wife's, and then make sure that we've got child-care coverage: this means planning months in advance, even for a single-day course, and the cost of child-care typically doubles my actual expenditure for the course.

    I'm currently trying to plan my next year's schedule, so that I can take full-weekend courses at TDI, which is itself geographically closer than some of the other schools which I want to, at some point, attend.

    One of my local trainers/schools does offer somewhat more routine dedicated F-o-F seminars, and I have begun a relationship with this trainer/school, and depending on how things go, will hopefully be able to pursue it on a more regular basis.

    For me, getting two or three (or more) "seminars" aren't the problem ...it's the more regular practice that, at the current moment, has a vacancy.
    You need a buddy that is into guns and training. My little brother and I train 3 to 4 times a week in FOF...Get a friend, take the courses and practice your arse off. You will get good, as it becomes second nature to explode of the X and get good shots on your intended target..
    Don"t let stupid be your skill set....

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    Distinguished Member Array TSiWRX's Avatar
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    ^ I need that friend, indeed.

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