Center or Mass / COM works!

This is a discussion on Center or Mass / COM works! within the Defensive Carry & Tactical Training forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; I have been a CERTIFIED Firearms Instuctor (Police, Corrections, CCH and LE Snipers) for over 20 years and in that time I have never had ...

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Thread: Center or Mass / COM works!

  1. #1
    Senior Member Array RebelRabbi's Avatar
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    Talking Center or Mass / COM works!

    I have been a CERTIFIED Firearms Instuctor (Police, Corrections, CCH and LE Snipers) for over 20 years and in that time I have never had to shoot anyone, the closest was that I did have to draw down on an Escapee armed with a hand ax who had the drop on my partner. I experienced all the classic signs of extreme stress; increased heart rate, tunnel vision, time distortion, loss of fine motor skills. There is no doubt in my mind when a person is confronted with a deadly force situation the physical effects are astounding. I teach,preach and live to carry the heaviest handgun caliber that you,as an idividual can shoot well with either hand,in a package as close to duty size as is practical, and that is simplest to operate under stress i.e. TDA or DAO auto or revolver. I think this is an important thing for new shooters in particular to know. Forget the idea of becoming a "Pistol Sniper" hitting T-Zones at 100 yards with your 1911. It ain't gonna be like that. Learn to identify the largest target that your opponent presents (COM) and put lead into it, lots of lead in rapid fashion. Learn to use cover,concealment,movement and lights to your advantage. Oh yeah, train, train and train some more and do it continuously, these are perishable skills and will degrade over relatively short periods of time!

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    Distinguished Member Array claude clay's Avatar
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    lots of good concepts here.

    and every one has to start and gain competence somewhere.
    this seem a very good place.
    Be aware, be deliberate in your actions and be accurate.
    -------------------
    Why do those elected to positions of power than work so hard
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    VIP Member Array searcher 45's Avatar
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    Great post!!!!!

    It seemed to me that some time ago the defense trainers were talking double tap double tap, but now its basically volley fire to COM.

    Question, is double tap just not seen as effective as it was once thought to be?
    NOT LIVING IN FEAR, JUST READY!!!
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    Member Array SgtTanner's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by searcher 45 View Post
    Great post!!!!!

    It seemed to me that some time ago the defense trainers were talking double tap double tap, but now its basically volley fire to COM.

    Question, is double tap just not seen as effective as it was once thought to be?
    From experience, under combat stress, the double tap may not hit where you want. We are always drilled and drilled and drilled to shoot COM and to keep shooting until the target is no longer a target. We also have for a CQB situation, the failure to stop drill. Two to the chest, one to the head. Again you have to drill it over and over at combat speed and under stress. Failure to train as you fight will lead your shots away from where you want them to go. If you don't train for it as real as you can and as often as you can then you are better off firing until the target is down. COM is a good large target for stress shooting. Just my .02

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    Senior Member Array Skeeter64's Avatar
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    "keep shooting until the target is no longer a target"

    This sounds like good advice to me!
    .357 mag, When you care enough to send the very best!

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    Senior Member Array adric22's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RebelRabbi View Post
    Oh yeah, train, train and train some more and do it continuously, these are perishable skills and will degrade over relatively short periods of time!
    While I will personally agree with everything you said, whole heartily. I wonder how much training we can expect the average CHL holder to undergo? Some people on here like to point out to me that I don't have enough training. And maybe I don't. But I have a lot more than most CHL holders I know. There are millions of them out there, several hundred-thousand in my state alone. Maybe this is a question better asked in a thread of its own, but what do most considered to be the minimal amount of training required to be qualified to carry a weapon?

    And yeah, I have really gotten to where I don't bother much with trying to shoot targets at any more than about 15 yards. Most of the practice I do at the range is more like 7 to 10 yards. From what I can tell there are very few incidents that would require a more accurate shot than that. Even though I can't practice drawing at any of the ranges I go to, I do practice taking the gun from the ready position to firing as quickly and accurately as possible. I figure that is better use of my time than trying to hit a quarter at 100 yards away like the rest of the people at the range. Now if I owned a sniper rifle, that would be different.

  8. #7
    Distinguished Member Array deadguy's Avatar
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    I have never bought into the double tap or two to COM and one to the head theories. The threat is a threat until they begin to or do fall or stop and turn to run. If it takes locking the slide back to get to that point then it takes locking the slide back and reloading. You won't know if you have hit your target until there is a reaction in one of the above ways (hopefully) or you see pink mist. He may not even realize he has been hit and continue the assault.

    I don't train enough, but when I do, it's from the draw and unloading a full mag to see just how well I can stay on target. This is A CONTROLLED ENVIRONMENT, not one where stress and an opposing force are involved. Train when you can, and make it count, because when the steel clears leather, you BETTER have your stuff together.
    There's nothing like a funeral to make you feel alive

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    Member Array Britbiker's Avatar
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    I whole heartedly agree with you Sir. Chances are a civilian is going to find him / herself in a fight for there life’s at very close range. (when was the last time you heard of anyone being raped, car jacked, robbed, or kidnapped at 20 plus feet?) Its going to be up close, dynamic, fast and scary. Your fight or flight reflex manifests itself. This reflex, honed by millenniums of adaptive human survival behavior, results in increased heart rate and cardiac output, higher blood pressure, accelerated respiration.

    The stress, rage, and fear which overwhelm the intended victim thus create a bodily alarm reaction which expresses itself as a period of greater strength and faster speed, your hart rate will jump to around 200bpm plus. At the same time, fine motor skills grossly deteriorate, dexterity noticeably decreases, and the hands, arms and legs may tremble. The intended victim will also likely experience an altered state of perception as well.

    When this all happens, you want to be reacting using “gross motor skills” as your fine motor skills will be taking a time out…trust me. You need to be able to get you weapon out and get bullets on meat without fiddling around with holsters or safety’s. Shoot fast, shoot to the ground and shoot accurately. Learn to point shoot!

    Practice sparing…..yes you might get thrown on the ground….yep, you will get dirty, scratched, might end up with a bump or welt or two or three. You need to also practice problem solving during as realistic perceived high threat scenarios, (get your mind used to fighting) drawing weapon from concealed at contact range (while the BG REALLY tries to do his job), disarming, strikes, communication, movement etc…..

    IMHO unless you train and practice these things how can we really self evaluate our competence?. How do you know what you need to work on? How do you KNOW what works and does not work when put into practical use?

    The metal masturbation of “I will do this or that because so and so said it will work” is just fine …….but its theory!

    And theory is great……until reality kicks it in the nuts!
    RebelRabbi likes this.

  10. #9
    Distinguished Member Array claude clay's Avatar
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    even those under the influence of PCP and/or the weirder drugs can not absorb a COM shots--one per second, will keep them from advancing till they run out of blood or you run out of bullets. 9mm, 40 or 45. matters not.

    "keep shooting until the target is no longer a target" thats the thought.

    dbl tap is still the way to handle the opening moves against multiple threats; than COM whose left standing till they ain't--a threat no longer.
    Be aware, be deliberate in your actions and be accurate.
    -------------------
    Why do those elected to positions of power than work so hard
    to deny those same opportunities to the same people who empowered them

  11. #10
    Senior Member Array TSiWRX's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by adric22 View Post
    While I will personally agree with everything you said, whole heartily. I wonder how much training we can expect the average CHL holder to undergo?
    This is something that I wonder, too.

    Have you had professional......

    155 votes polled from over 10 times that of number of "views" of the topic, on a Forum with over 47 thousand registered members, of which, at virtually any time of any day, nearly 300 are "active," in some way or another, on the Forums.

    The same kind of statistics are seen on a recent Ohioans for Concealed Carry Forum poll thread.

    And yeah, I have really gotten to where I don't bother much with trying to shoot targets at any more than about 15 yards. Most of the practice I do at the range is more like 7 to 10 yards. From what I can tell there are very few incidents that would require a more accurate shot than that. Even though I can't practice drawing at any of the ranges I go to, I do practice taking the gun from the ready position to firing as quickly and accurately as possible. I figure that is better use of my time than trying to hit a quarter at 100 yards away like the rest of the people at the range. Now if I owned a sniper rifle, that would be different.
    Remember that as you get more and more proficient, those close-range shots will get easier and easier...so you'll need to work on balancing your speed along with accuracy (as well as safety!), and take those targets way back to the far backdrop of your indoor range (i.e. 20 or 25 yards) - and take those long, long shots which will magnify any mistakes you may be making with "the fundamentals of marksmanship."

    For example, a few months ago, I was shooting in a stall adjacent to a young man who, after some friendly banter in the shop, I found out was actually a special-forces soldier. He actually very sheepishly admitted that to me, after I repeatedly mourned the fact that my shooting, that day, was so poor - particularly when I had compared it to "the guy in the next stall (i.e. him)." At the closer ranges, I actually wasn't too far off his pace...but when he cranked that target out to the 25, it really showed where my fundamentals really still needed work.

    In the end, it all rolls into one - your dues working on the boring fundamentals on the flat-range, the sweat and blood you've shed from Force-on-Force, the mud and grime that you've had to scrub out of your magazines and gear after a hard day's outdoor class, and even the "mental masturbation" that so many have cited...all the "what ifs" we keep posing to each-other and ourselves: it's all in the hope that should we ever come face-to-face with the unthinkable, one day, that we will stand a better chance than had we not done our due-diligence, to the best of our abilities.

    What I've learned in being a newbie to all of this - in having progressed through the same classes with some of my friends, etc. - is that these skills are so perishable, so quickly. A friend who had not been to the range in a few months, due to a new baby arriving in his home, reverted back to slapping the trigger, a mistake that he'd corrected nearly a year before...but returned. Like the OP and many others here have said, practice, practice, and practice some more.
    RebelRabbi likes this.

  12. #11
    VIP Member Array Harryball's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TSiWRX View Post
    This is something that I wonder, too.

    Have you had professional......

    155 votes polled from over 10 times that of number of "views" of the topic, on a Forum with over 47 thousand registered members, of which, at virtually any time of any day, nearly 300 are "active," in some way or another, on the Forums.

    The same kind of statistics are seen on a recent Ohioans for Concealed Carry Forum poll thread.



    Remember that as you get more and more proficient, those close-range shots will get easier and easier...so you'll need to work on balancing your speed along with accuracy (as well as safety!), and take those targets way back to the far backdrop of your indoor range (i.e. 20 or 25 yards) - and take those long, long shots which will magnify any mistakes you may be making with "the fundamentals of marksmanship."

    For example, a few months ago, I was shooting in a stall adjacent to a young man who, after some friendly banter in the shop, I found out was actually a special-forces soldier. He actually very sheepishly admitted that to me, after I repeatedly mourned the fact that my shooting, that day, was so poor - particularly when I had compared it to "the guy in the next stall (i.e. him)." At the closer ranges, I actually wasn't too far off his pace...but when he cranked that target out to the 25, it really showed where my fundamentals really still needed work.

    In the end, it all rolls into one - your dues working on the boring fundamentals on the flat-range, the sweat and blood you've shed from Force-on-Force, the mud and grime that you've had to scrub out of your magazines and gear after a hard day's outdoor class, and even the "mental masturbation" that so many have cited...all the "what ifs" we keep posing to each-other and ourselves: it's all in the hope that should we ever come face-to-face with the unthinkable, one day, that we will stand a better chance than had we not done our due-diligence, to the best of our abilities.

    What I've learned in being a newbie to all of this - in having progressed through the same classes with some of my friends, etc. - is that these skills are so perishable, so quickly. A friend who had not been to the range in a few months, due to a new baby arriving in his home, reverted back to slapping the trigger, a mistake that he'd corrected nearly a year before...but returned. Like the OP and many others here have said, practice, practice, and practice some more.
    Training is on going, you should never stop. Once you hit your failure point, step back, evaluate then go past it. In the other thread you mentioned it doesnt surprise me that only a few would have the training needed for a DCI. Most folks think that if they hit there still target every time that its good enough for self defense.

    Training is not fun, and shouldnt be looked at as a game. This is serious stuff we are talking about. It should be fewed as a never ending ladder, you will never hit the top rung, but getting as close as you can should be the goal....This applies to all training. The OP made very points in his post, that should be taken very seriously.

    PM sent to you TSiWRX
    RebelRabbi likes this.
    Don"t let stupid be your skill set....

  13. #12
    Senior Member Array TSiWRX's Avatar
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    ^ PM replied. Hope we'll get a chance to talk tomorrow! Thank you.


    -----


    I agree completely - there's a seriousness to this kind of martial training/practice that should *never* be confused with gaming/fun. Something that my father taught me long, long ago was that when training for self-defense (be it with a stick, one's fists, or a rock), one should meditate for a moment on why we are undertaking such training, and the dire consequences that involve any such activities - especially of not getting it right.

    And as with you and many others here, I fully agree that we have to train beyond our comfort zone: that when we see that our groups are nice and tight on the paper or when we've achieved proficiency with one skill or another, it is time to increase the level of difficulty of that exercise/drill, to seek a failure/breaking point so that we may overcome it. When I practice, I'm not looking for perfection: instead I'm looking to get to my failure point so that I can learn to get better, to go beyond that limitation. For me, there is no perfect, just better.

    This is a big part of the reason why I seek professional help, as well as seek words of wisdom from those who are more advanced/experienced than I am. In that single range session that I've detailed above, that nice young man, as we were parting ways, taught me two tricks that, when I revisited the range the following week, immediately improved my longer-range accuracy and consistency.

    I understand precisely what you mean by "training is not fun." That it is not a game. The underlying reasons for why we train with the utmost seriousness is that these are the skills we will rely on when the unthinkable happens, when we are engaged in mortal combat for either our personal safety or that of our loved ones'.

    OK, that's going to make me depressed before heading upstairs to go to sleep. So I'm gonna go kiss my daughter and whisper something sweet in her ear, before that.

    Oh, and I suppose that training is, in its own way, fun...but yes, I get exactly what you mean.

  14. #13
    Senior Member Array RebelRabbi's Avatar
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    I can see that ya'll "Get It". I'll only add one bit to what's already been said. When I teach I always have my Trainees leave "Winners". I want them to walk off the range, mat, whatever with confidence that they can get the job done. When I practice alone, I slow down on that LAST target, focus in on Trigger Control and Sight Picture, shoot myself a nice tight group. That's the last mental picture I want in my head, me hitting my target. Satisfaction.

  15. #14
    Senior Member Array TSiWRX's Avatar
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    ^ I'm not a teacher, but I've been a student long enough to say that's great advice. It's always good to leave on a positive note. Indeed, in-retrospect, all of my instructors, so far, have always ended things on a positive note, and reinforced to their students that they CAN do it.

    And I'll definitely take your advice to-heart, on that very last shot.

    I'd also say that your congregation is lucky to have you.
    RebelRabbi likes this.

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