Martial arts for self defense. - Page 2

Martial arts for self defense.

This is a discussion on Martial arts for self defense. within the Defensive Carry & Tactical Training forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; Well that is a good question. I would like to know my self. But I think it has something to do with useing the other ...

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  1. #16
    Ex Member Array JDlewis's Avatar
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    Well that is a good question. I would like to know my self. But I think it has something to do with useing the other person energy against them self. That why it looks that way I might be wrong and correct me if I'm not right.


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  2. #17
    Member Array gruntingfrog's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JDlewis View Post
    Well that is a good question. I would like to know my self. But I think it has something to do with useing the other person energy against them self. That why it looks that way I might be wrong and correct me if I'm not right.
    I know that's the concept, but in most of the videos I've seen there is a distinct pause in the action at some point and the attacker just stands there as the practitioner preps to throw him. In other moves, it looks like a fist could easily be thrown as you're being turned past the Aikido practitioner's face. Watch some of these moves and other videos on Youtube and it appears that there are several times when counters to these throws could be thrown.

    Again, I've yet to see anything but demonstrations of Aikido - not tournaments or real fights where Aikido is used - so this may be why it appears this way to me. Even the Youtube videos called "Real Aikido Fight" aren't.

    Please, let me know I'm wrong. I've been fascinated by Aikido since I first saw Above the Law and would love it to be of practical use. I would really like to see a real (or tournament) fight between Aikido and a street fighter for example.
    Everybody has a plan until they get punched in the face.
    - Mike Tyson

  3. #18
    Distinguished Member Array BadgerJ's Avatar
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    Unfortunately, the large Aiki-doka has forgotten that being ranked in his art does not excuse him for being 80lbs overweight. Thanks for the vid and the post, though. Agree that most muggings will not feature such a cooperative attacker. If you look at the first gun defense, he sweeps his own legs - not good.

  4. #19
    Member Array mrjam2jab's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by gruntingfrog View Post
    I know that's the concept, but in most of the videos I've seen there is a distinct pause in the action at some point and the attacker just stands there as the practitioner preps to throw him. In other moves, it looks like a fist could easily be thrown as you're being turned past the Aikido practitioner's face. Watch some of these moves and other videos on Youtube and it appears that there are several times when counters to these throws could be thrown.

    Again, I've yet to see anything but demonstrations of Aikido - not tournaments or real fights where Aikido is used - so this may be why it appears this way to me. Even the Youtube videos called "Real Aikido Fight" aren't.

    Please, let me know I'm wrong. I've been fascinated by Aikido since I first saw Above the Law and would love it to be of practical use. I would really like to see a real (or tournament) fight between Aikido and a street fighter for example.
    Aikido doesn't have tournaments. It's more about bettering yourself than competing against others.

    Sometimes it does look like you can counter a technique and that the person being thrown is helping. But if you are being thrown and you don't "go with it" you will get hurt. Some demos do look like there are opportunites to counter, but demos tend to be slower so folks watching can see what is happening. In a real encounter, most of the techniques would catch an attacker off guard since we don't take a offensive/defensive posture.

    If you get an opportunity to take classes I highly recommend it..


    Watch this video ....this is the grandson of the founder of Aikido.


  5. #20
    Member Array redstgunnut's Avatar
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    Ok, I've watched both videos.

    I begin with a confession: I've never taken Aikido.

    That said, in both videos I see a demonstration of technique, not a fight. I see people coming forward giving the demonstrator a limb and then, apparently well-aware of the technique being employed, going cooperatively with it. There are moments in these videos that it is very clear that the "attacker" is actually initiating the roll or giving up the joint lock.

    I take Brazilian Jiu Jitsu. I've tested that against a resisting opponent. It works. I'm not saying Aikido wouldn't be helpful in a fight, but these videos don't help me believe that.

  6. #21
    Distinguished Member Array Lotus222's Avatar
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    Interesting vids.

    I trained Taekwondo for about 9 years through my teens. With the amount of training that I had, I could have taken a regular joe with no combat training and no weapons very very easily. I took some knife defense classes and several weapons training classes. Sure, I had an edge, but the main emphasis was on striking hand-to-hand combat. Fortunately, we also trained in grappling (on-the-ground fighting) and some judo techniques. Ground fighting adds a whole new element to self defense.

    Although, I have a definite edge, I feel like I could use some more real-world training techniques. Plus, I have been out of practice for over a decade. I will say that the best thing that I learned through my experiences, is that you can't prepare for everything, but having some tools on-hand (like say a .40 cal ) will definitely widen your odds in a SHTF scenario.

  7. #22
    Senior Member Array Daddy Warcrimes's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by gruntingfrog View Post
    Every time I see an Aikido video like this one, it seems as if the participants are going along with the throw or move.
    The videos are for the most part staged. Even in actual application, Uke (the attacker) goes along with the technique because Nage doesn't give him a choice. What is difficult to see is how balance is involved. A key component of the technique is to take Uke's balance.
    It seems too effortless.
    If you are straining to perform an Aikido technique, you're doing it wrong. Overcoming strength is a perilous tactic because there will always be someone out there who is stronger.

    I've never seen anyone appear to attempt to stop the throw by striking, locking legs, or any other defensive counter taught in many martial arts.
    I have, and it sometimes works.

    Is it simply that these are demonstrations not live sparring? Or is it that the moves are that effective when performed by a skilled practitioner?
    Both.

    I can only assume there are counters to these moves taught in Aikido, so why don't I ever see them?
    Because... you're not taking an Aikido class...?

    I've yet to see anything but demonstrations of Aikido - not tournaments or real fights where Aikido is used
    Competition is discouraged in Aiki. Proving yourself better than others has no value; striving to be better yourself is the goal. Real fights are rarely caught on tape, and Aikidoka tend to be the type to resolve conflict without violence. No surprise there.

    The end state is that it is inevitably the artist, and not the art that wins or loses. I didn't study Aikido because I thought it was the best art out there, I did so because it was the correct art for me.
    surefire7 and TSiWRX like this.
    "and suddenly I can not hold back my sword hand's anger"

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  8. #23
    Member Array Justified's Avatar
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    I was looking into Krav Maga classes in my area. Any thoughts?
    • We sleep safely in our beds because rough men stand ready in the night to visit violence on those who would harm us.
    - George Orwell Military

  9. #24
    Ex Member Array JDlewis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by gruntingfrog View Post
    I know that's the concept, but in most of the videos I've seen there is a distinct pause in the action at some point and the attacker just stands there as the practitioner preps to throw him. In other moves, it looks like a fist could easily be thrown as you're being turned past the Aikido practitioner's face. Watch some of these moves and other videos on Youtube and it appears that there are several times when counters to these throws could be thrown.

    Again, I've yet to see anything but demonstrations of Aikido - not tournaments or real fights where Aikido is used - so this may be why it appears this way to me. Even the Youtube videos called "Real Aikido Fight" aren't.

    Please, let me know I'm wrong. I've been fascinated by Aikido since I first saw Above the Law and would love it to be of practical use. I would really like to see a real (or tournament) fight between Aikido and a street fighter for example.
    go to youtube and type this STREET FIGHT REAL SELF DEFENSE this might help you.

  10. #25
    Distinguished Member Array BadgerJ's Avatar
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    What many people don't realize is that the founder of Aikido (M. Ueshiba) had training in Daito-ryu and possibly Chinese arts, as 'base arts' prior to developing Aikido. Not all Aikido students get the same training (an elite chosen cadre get it, supposedly). Without these base arts and the skill of Fa-jin, their expression of Aikido is not as robust. Ueshiba's art was functionalized due to these base arts and worked extremely well, sometimes showing seemingly supernatural ability. See Jay Gluck's 'Zen Combat' for a more detailed description of Ueshiba's abilities.

  11. #26
    Member Array mfcmb's Avatar
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    I'm a second degree black belt in Aikido. I studied the founder's style, both in California and in Japan. I'd like to toss some comments into the discussion.

    o The video of the founder's grandson is of a formal demonstration. In every case the "attacker" is cleanly and sincerely making one of the standardized attacks from which we practice, and the grandson is executing a very clean and correct defensive technique. He technique is "real" in the sense that there's a lot of ways to get it wrong, and if he screwed up it would be very obvious. But it's not at all a fight where people are jockeying for position, trying to psych each other out, etc.: it's a demonstration.

    o I trained with Steven Segal briefly at his school in Osaka Japan. He was very good, and very real. His early movies show what "street" Aikido would look like. In training we tend to draw out the techniques and exaggerate our execution as a training method. In a real-life encounter the techniques, when effectively applied, will be much more compressed and much less clean than in practice or in demos.

    o Aikido was developed in the 1920's. Most of the Aikido techniques are taken from older martial arts which the founder studied. There are only so many ways to manipulate human joints, and they have been discovered and refined over history. What Aikido does is apply them in a different way. In Aikido, there must first be an attack in motion (or if you're really good, in the intention of the attacker). Then you blend with the attack so that you are both moving together, as one, in complete harmony. Then you take over the initiative and guide the motion into a path that you desire. This path will typically lead to either a joint lock with which you can control your attacker's body or a throw in which the attacker flies away from you. It's entirely your choice as to whether you want to simply divert the attack away from you or smash the attacker into the floor or throw him/her through a window, etc.

    o When done correctly, Aikido is as effortless and effective as it seems. When done incorrectly it can easily be countered and techniques can be frozen out. It's really hard and takes a lot of training and practice to learn to consistently do it correctly, especially when under pressure.

    o One of the hardest parts of learning Aikido is that you have to get your whole body and mind to work in harmony with the whole body and motion (and if you're very good, intent) of the attacker. It's natural when someone's forcefully swinging a club at your head to narrow your focus to the club, or when someone's grabbed your wrist to focus on your wrist and his/her hand. But for Aikido to work you have to maintain a situational awareness that includes all of the attacker's body, all of your body, and their connection to the surrounding environment. With this awareness you become aware of the attacker's strong and weak points and come to intuitively adjust your movements to apply your strengths (balance, center, control, etc.) against the attacker's weaknesses. For example it's very common for someone strong in the chest and arms to be weak in the knees, and by adjusting the path of your mutual motion you can work against the weak knees and take his/her balance rather than trying to overcome the strenght of his/her arms. This is hard to learn, but very effective. It's one of the things that makes Aikido so effortless when done correctly.

    o The founder forbade contests and tournaments in his school, and most styles of Aikido respect this restriction. I don't really know why, though I've heard it's to keep students from destroying each other. In any case, the result is that most Aikido training effectively protects practitioners from serious harm during practice, unless you get a partner who just likes to play rough.

    o Since all Aikido techniques are defensive in nature, it's a "non-fighting" art: It's goal is to prevent, neutralize and end instances of aggression: if possible, even to transform aggression into harmony. You prevent through situational awareness and through positioning yourself so you're hard or impossible to attack. You neutralize through getting off the line of the attack, blending with it, and taking initiative over the path of the motion. You end it by letting the motion die out harmlessly, or pinning and imobilizing the attacker, or by breaking his/her arm, or by smashing him/her into the floor or through a window: whatever's appropriate under the circumstances. This sequence is very similar to how are taught to use firearms in self defense.

    o Perhaps because of it's emphasis on harmony, blending, non-fighting, etc. and because it has a strong philosophy of promoting peace and harmony among humankind, it's very popular with new-age oriented people, and many schools teach it more as a way to get in touch with yourself then as the devastating form of martial self defense that it can be. So a lot of practitioners probably wouldn't be able to use it in a "fight". On the other hand, I've heard lots of stories of practitioners being taken by surprise -- by a mugger, by a car barreling down the sidewalk, by boxes falling off of high shelves -- and reflexively making a move that leaves the practitioner safe.

    o Wow, I guess I really got on a roll there. Anyway, I hope that gives some useful perspective on the art.
    In the heat of the moment, what matters is what your body knows -- not what your mind knows.

  12. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by BadgerJ View Post
    Unfortunately, the large Aiki-doka has forgotten that being ranked in his art does not excuse him for being 80lbs overweight. Thanks for the vid and the post, though. Agree that most muggings will not feature such a cooperative attacker. If you look at the first gun defense, he sweeps his own legs - not good.
    First I'll say that the knife defens moves looked pretty good to me. Nice job. BUT...

    The gun defense moves were ridiculous. The defender arm drags the gun away from his body (good) and then DRAGS THE MUZZLE BACK ACROSS HIS MID SECTION in a semicircle. That's just plain crap.

    I think that many martial arts will benefit you in the real world but be careful what you are learning. Gaunts DATD technique is WAY better than the Tomfoolery on display by the chubby guy. Train, train, train but for Pete's sake train right!
    It is surely true that you can lead a horse to water but you can't make them drink. Nor can you make them grateful for your efforts.

  13. #28
    Senior Member Array adric22's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by redstgunnut View Post
    I see people coming forward giving the demonstrator a limb and then, apparently well-aware of the technique being employed, going cooperatively with it. There are moments in these videos that it is very clear that the "attacker" is actually initiating the roll or giving up the joint lock.
    It would certainly appear that way. But let me explain how it works. These joint locks hurt like *#&!. In fact, subconsciously your brain knows that if you don't move or do something, your joints are going to break. So you naturally move in a way that relieves the pressure on these locks whether you want to or not. It is possible to be stubborn and not cooperate, as long as you don't mind broken bones and joints. So when you see somebody in Aikido grab a persons hand and then flip them upside down or throw them, yes the attacker is the one throwing himself, more or less. he doesn't realize that is what he is doing at first, it is just an autonomic response to the condition of the joint lock.

    Now, in an Aikido class, the person who is playing the role of the attacker may "roll out" of lock. That is not what would happen in real life. We do that to protect our joints, while allowing the person being trained to complete the maneuver. If the same technique were applied to somebody who does not know how to roll, then they will essentially fall flat on their face. Actually, that happens in class sometimes too, hence the rubber mats on the floor.

    Aikido is not as popular as other fighting methods because it really centers around self-defense. There are no offensive moves in Aikido. Everything you learn is a reaction to an attack. So as others have pointed out, there is no point to having a match between two people, as somebody would have to attack the other person.

    In the second video, you'll notice the guy on the ground "tapping" the ground. That is basically the way we communicate to each other that we have exceeded our pain threshold. So you'll notice in each case, as soon as the tap happens, the other person will let go. So just because it doesn't look like it hurts, trust me, it hurts.. it hurts a lot.

  14. #29
    VIP Member Array 357and40's Avatar
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    The guys above that have taken Aikido explained it pretty well.

    I have never taken it but have a friend who taught Aikido. I asked him the same about how it seemed so effortless. I watched his demonstrations & came away telling him that it seemed so staged. He knew I knew no martial arts & told me to try to get at him in the same way any attacker would without telling him what I was going to do.

    He made every attempt I made at him seem effortless on his behalf & made me feel really foolish for spending so much time on the ground. It really was that simple. He did it right every time and barely broke a sweat. I did my best to get at him & I am sure the only pain I inflicted on him was in sympathy for my bruises & bumps.

    I will stick with the art of Cliq Pao, my physical skills are not superb.
    "I've seen things you people wouldn't believe. Attack ships on fire off the shoulder of Orion. I watched c-beams glitter in the dark near the Tannhäuser Gate. All those moments will be lost in time, like tears in rain."
    - Roy Batty

  15. #30
    Member Array gruntingfrog's Avatar
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    Wow. That's a lot of really good information and it explains a lot. I'm going to have to see about getting into a school.

    Adric22, we're both in the DFW area. Where would you recommend going? I'd be more interested in learning the actual defensive art and not the new-age feel good, unicorns prancing in a field of daisies version MFCMB mentioned.

    JDLewis, thanks for pointing me to that YouTube video (YouTube - STREET FIGHT REAL SELF DEFENSE). It definitely shows what these moves look like at full speed against someone who is not "rolling out of them" as Adric22 mentioned. It also shows how they would be used in a practical situation.
    Everybody has a plan until they get punched in the face.
    - Mike Tyson

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