Martial arts for self defense.

Martial arts for self defense.

This is a discussion on Martial arts for self defense. within the Defensive Carry & Tactical Training forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; I forgot I had this video, so I thought I'd post it. This video is about 5 years old, when I just first started taking ...

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Thread: Martial arts for self defense.

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    Senior Member Array adric22's Avatar
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    Martial arts for self defense.

    I forgot I had this video, so I thought I'd post it. This video is about 5 years old, when I just first started taking self-defense classes, you can see me in the full-white outfit in some of the scenes. There are some techniques my instructor showed towards the end for how to take a gun away from somebody. He sort of messed up a bit on the very last one (with gun pointed to his back) and would have likely been shot. But the other scenarios with the gun in his face or chest are actually very effective. We've tried with airsoft before and the bad-guy will generally not have the reaction time to realize what has happened and to shoot off a round. You'll notice in each case, the muzzle of the gun is kept pointed away from the good guy the moment he gets his hands on it.



    This is one of the reasons I take my self-defense perspective a little different from others around here. It seems most people's response is that in the event of a close-encounter situation their first reaction is to go for their gun and fire off a round as quickly as possible. For me, if somebody takes me by surprise (unlikely) I'm not going to be thinking about my gun at all. I'm going to be going from muscle memory on how to defend myself from immanent attack. I'll go for the gun after the immediate threat is gone or delayed for a few seconds.

    When I'm walking in public, I'm constantly examining everyone around me. What are they doing, where are they going, etc. I look at everyone's hands to see if they are hiding the palms of their hands (and hence a weapon). Do they look bored? Are they scoping out other people? (possibly victims) are they making eye-contact with somebody else somewhere (an accomplice?) I actively avoid walking next to something that might have an assailant waiting behind it. For example, in a parking garage, I keep my distance from vehicles I can't see through or concrete pillars that people could hide behind. If somebody looks at me, I make eye contact. I let that person know that I'm paying attention, not texting on my cell phone or daydreaming. All of these things are to prevent a surprise attack.

    The gun is backup for me. The gun is for situations of multiple assailants, protecting other people, or other situations like Columbine, Virginia Tech, etc.

    If a guy walks up and sticks a gun in your face, what are you going to do? You have 3 options, 1) take the gun away from him, 2) give him what he wants and hope he doesn't kill you, or 3) try to shoot back. It seems most people's solution is #3. Unfortunately, this is really not viable. You're more likely to get shot or stabbed or whatever. The thing the bad guy expects least is for you to fight back physically. It will take him completely be surprise. It has been proven over and over again that our reflexes (human reflexes) are not fast enough to pull the trigger upon realizing that somebody is about to grab your gun at close range. In fact just about anyone with very little training can grab a gun or knife and move it out of the line of fire before the crook can pull the trigger. The problem is knowing what to do with it afterwords because if you mess up, he will regain control of his weapon and kill you.

    A smart bad guy who points his gun at you will keep some distance between you and him so that you can't do this.

    I realize some of the scenarios shown in the video are unrealistic, such as when a fist is flying, because they are running at me with their fist. This rarely happens in real life. usually a fist is thrown at short range and there is little time to react.

    But what we learn in class that is most important is simply how to react when grabbed from different angles or threatened with a weapon at close range.


  2. #2
    Member Array mrjam2jab's Avatar
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    Is that Aikikai-style?

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    Senior Member Array adric22's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mrjam2jab View Post
    Is that Aikikai-style?
    Yes - It is Aikido. I've also done some Karate but I really didn't find it all that useful. Karate is more about kicking and hitting things. Aikido is more about joint-locks and hand-to-hand type stuff. I was really skeptical when I first went to class. A friend of mine had pressured me to go for years. I thought all this stuff was hollywood and wasn't really that effective. But the instructor encouraged me to try several different attacks on him, even with weapons like a long stick. I was hesitant at first because I was afraid I'd hurt him. But I found out really quick that this stuff is very effective. What you don't see in this video is the pain that is caused by these joint locks. When you see somebody fall to the floor and somebody is still holding their hand or wrist in a lock, it HURTS! and it is impossible to get from that lock until the person lets you. You probably wouldn't think so by looking at this video, though.

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    Distinguished Member Array TSiWRX's Avatar
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    Part of the reason why I'm starting up with H2H (again - in my past life...OK, in my much thinner and more fit, but less-than-recent, past , I was actually decent at a full-contact martial-art) is because "you always have your hands."

    To me, the gun and the knife - as well as whatever else I can pick up and use (didn't Jack Bauer dispatch a BG with a 2x4? ) - is supplemental.

    And no matter what, it's always best to simply not be there, and that includes not being in front of the muzzle to receive the shot.

    Practicing only on a static square-range can be deceptive to newbies. They'll think that they can just draw and fire, put down the threat, and go home for dinner. That's not the case: if you just stand there, you're going to get shot, stabbed, tackled, punched, etc., and it's probably going to be before you can get your muzzle on-target (and this is where a full-contact school, using Force-on-Force techniques, will much better serve this vital purpose).

    The key instead is to "get off the X," to get off the line-of-attack, and if that means using your bare hands to fend off the initial blitz or dodging out of the way, then that's what you should do: that's what you NEED to do.
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    Member Array mrjam2jab's Avatar
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    I studied for a number of years Kokikai Aikido....reached 1st Dan in March 2009. Nov 2009 I had to take time off for financial reasons...dying to get back into it. Seeing videos like this aint helping...

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    Well I have always wanted to do aikido but I have never got to yet. But I do have a brown belt in tae kwon do and it does help if you ever need it.


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    VIP Member Array 357and40's Avatar
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    Please do not think I am discounting the value of Martial Arts training but every time someone on a firearms forum brings up H2H training I think of this:



    The backstory here is that Ford was REALLY sick the day this scene was to be filmed. It was supposed to be a really spectacular fight scene & the director took pity. They tried it the way it appears here & liked it so much they did not bother shooting the originally scripted version.
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    "I've seen things you people wouldn't believe. Attack ships on fire off the shoulder of Orion. I watched c-beams glitter in the dark near the Tannhäuser Gate. All those moments will be lost in time, like tears in rain."
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    Quote Originally Posted by 357and40 View Post
    Please do not think I am discounting the value of Martial Arts training but every time someone on a firearms forum brings up H2H training I think of this:



    The backstory here is that Ford was REALLY sick the day this scene was to be filmed. It was supposed to be a really spectacular fight scene & the director took pity. They tried it the way it appears here & liked it so much they did not bother shooting the originally scripted version.
    What would a modern Grand Jury do with that scene? Was there a duty to retreat? Was there a serious threat of imminent bodily harm given the distance between the two and the number of onlookers? Was this mutual combat and not self defense? Who escalated and why?

    Then, gun forum hindsight. Why no double taps.
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    VIP Member Array 357and40's Avatar
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    A modern day Grand Jury would laugh their kiesters off.

    Duty to retreat as a foreigner surrounded by locals and he is about to charge?

    Threat?!?!? uhhh yep... he was surrounded....

    This was neither mutual combat nor self defense, it was a jerk bringin a knife to a gun fight....

    The local escalated for no reason...

    The more important question: Why no triple taps?
    "I've seen things you people wouldn't believe. Attack ships on fire off the shoulder of Orion. I watched c-beams glitter in the dark near the Tannhäuser Gate. All those moments will be lost in time, like tears in rain."
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    Well, my internet connection has been on the fritz ever since our whole town lost phone service a couple weeks ago so I am presently unable to play the videos posted here.

    But here's my general impression of martial arts role in self defense.

    1) Any tool you can add to your defensive tool box is a good thing and provides you with options.

    2) I think martial arts training can be over rated as a realistic method of self defense. Many martial art forms are not really designed around true combat, but has been adapted to defense. Still it's a tool and capability which can make the difference.

    As far as weapon disarming techniques, (and again, I was not able to view the techniques presented in the video) but if you want to learn how to perform weapon retention and disarming techniques, you should take a dedicated weapon retention and disarming course and master those skills. Today, as far as law enforcement circles go, the best method is still the "Jim Lindell method of handgun and long gun weapon retention and disarming techniques." It has been proven the world over and it works.

    However, there are other techniques which no doubt do work quite well, and as far as I'm concerned one would be foolhardy to try and perform a disarming technique without sufficient amount of training and practice. These skills depreciate rapidly without constant practice and training. You can not watch a video and think you are going to be able to accomplish an effective weapon take away without getting shot.
    -Bark'n
    Semper Fi


    "The gun is the great equalizer... For it is the gun, that allows the meek to repel the monsters; Whom are bigger, stronger and without conscience, prey on those who without one, would surely perish."

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    I used to be a martial arts practioner.
    Got a 2nd in Kempo and a Brown in Aikido.

    Both have helped me in many take downs in the LEO world. A wrist lock, finger pick and an occasional elbow to the back of the head or a leg sweep seem to work well enough to get every situation under control... so far.

    As I get older, I tend to practice one martial art that seems to work well. Its a simple movement with a certain finger of the right hand
    As the arm comes up to eye level, the few times I have actually used it got the point across well enough to neutralize the situation.

    I find my self more dependent on it than I used to be, with rif-raff seeming to get younger all the time.

    Of course, I am talking about Gun Fu.
    It works.
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    Ex Member Array G19inLV's Avatar
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    I am also an aikidoka, although I have not trained since May because I hurt my knee and have been doing PT and what not. I am hoping to start back up again this month. That is a pretty good video, I love the technique at :57, although I can't remember the exact name. Very effective. With all the MMA, Brazillian stuff now that is popular, people are forgetting about the traditional arts like Aikido. Glad to see some people on here practice.

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    Member Array GhostRed7's Avatar
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    I, too, have practiced both Kenpo and Aikido. There are definitely real world applications to both. Unfortunately prior to carrying, I had to utilize that toolset. Unfortunate for the mugger wannabe that tried. I got lucky, but still lessons learned allowed me to escape with my life.
    "Sir, could you please not bleed so much? I have to clean the store after they haul you off and I'd like the rest of my shift, to be, like, you know, better."

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    Member Array gruntingfrog's Avatar
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    Before I begin, I must say I am in no way attempting to disparage Aikido. I've always thought it was an elegant martial art and have been interested in taking classes for a while, so I'm asking a legitimate question that I would like to know the answer to.

    Every time I see an Aikido video like this one, it seems as if the participants are going along with the throw or move. It seems too effortless. I've never seen anyone appear to attempt to stop the throw by striking, locking legs, or any other defensive counter taught in many martial arts. Is it simply that these are demonstrations not live sparring? Or is it that the moves are that effective when performed by a skilled practitioner? I can only assume there are counters to these moves taught in Aikido, so why don't I ever see them?

    I'm sure I could keep peppering you all with questions, so I'll just start there. Thanks!
    Everybody has a plan until they get punched in the face.
    - Mike Tyson

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    VIP Member Array BugDude's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by HotGuns View Post
    I used to be a martial arts practioner.
    Got a 2nd in Kempo and a Brown in Aikido.

    Both have helped me in many take downs in the LEO world. A wrist lock, finger pick and an occasional elbow to the back of the head or a leg sweep seem to work well enough to get every situation under control... so far.

    As I get older, I tend to practice one martial art that seems to work well. Its a simple movement with a certain finger of the right hand
    As the arm comes up to eye level, the few times I have actually used it got the point across well enough to neutralize the situation.

    I find my self more dependent on it than I used to be, with rif-raff seeming to get younger all the time.

    Of course, I am talking about Gun Fu.
    It works.
    Gun Fu must bew akin to Cliq Pao
    Know Guns, Know Safety, Know Peace.
    No Guns, No Safety, No Peace.

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