Shoot to slide lock or count rounds? - Page 3

Shoot to slide lock or count rounds?

This is a discussion on Shoot to slide lock or count rounds? within the Defensive Carry & Tactical Training forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; Every time I shoot wheelies, I find myself pulling on empty chambers. 15 shot mags will do that to you....

Page 3 of 5 FirstFirst 12345 LastLast
Results 31 to 45 of 73
Like Tree51Likes

Thread: Shoot to slide lock or count rounds?

  1. #31
    Ex Member Array Yankeejib's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2009
    Location
    Tampa, FL
    Posts
    1,003
    Every time I shoot wheelies, I find myself pulling on empty chambers. 15 shot mags will do that to you.


  2. #32
    Member Array Cattus Vir's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2011
    Location
    Granville County NC
    Posts
    439
    I only consciously count rounds at the range I have tried to count rounds (training rapid deployment and such with a paintball gun) but found that was not always possible. What I do practice regularly is administrative and emergency reloads, tap rack ready drills and one one handed (both strong and weak hand) reloads. I know I can not practice for every circumstance I can practice the most common, in my mind, that I may face on the street.

  3. #33
    Member Array Cruel Hand Luke's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Location
    Tennessee
    Posts
    404
    In an IDPA match you are shooting known course of fire. There really is not mucch OODA cycle. You have already observed, oriented, and decided all before the buzzer sounds. At the buzzer you simply act and carry out your preplanned method of shooting the course. So in that situation counting rounds is doable for most people. In fact if you really strategize the stages there is a good chance you will plan your location and time of your mag change based on how many rounds you have fired.

    For instance if you have a 16 shot course of fire you might plan your mag change to happen after round # 8 or maybe after round #11 depending on what the target array is (assuming you are shooting Stock Service Pistol and you started with 11 rounds in the gun) . The point is that since no one is shooting back and you are not constantly having to make decisions under stress that you CAN pretty reliably count rounds and in fact PLAN for when you will reload based on that count. It is not like in the real thing where there is so much info coming in that focusing on counting takes a back seat to focusing on not getting shot stabbed or blugeoned.

    So in a GAME where you are already aware of how it will end, aware of all the targets and their location, and know that nothing will change once the buzzer sounds, then YES counting rounds is doable and a good way to plan out your course of attack.



    Now, as for reloading with a round in the chamber in IDPA.....Per IDPA rules the ONLY time you can drop a mag on the deck is if the gun is at slidelock.

    So if there is a round in the chamber you will have to do a "reload with retention" (stow the empty mag before you shoot again) even if the mag is empty. Obviously this is not going to be as fast as a slidelock reload due to the extra task of having to also stow the magazine.

    In IPSC you can do true "speed reloads" where you eject partial mags and let them fall and just slam a new one in as fast as you can....but in IDPA that is a procedural penalty. So shooting to slidelock and reloading without having to retain the mag in IDPA actaully can be an advantage ....especially if you plan WHEN and WHERE that will happen. And you make that happen by planning out how many rounds you will fire at each position and then you will know when and where it will happen so all you then have to do is count them and reload......the real world is rarely so accomodating.
    Randy Harris
    Suarez International Tier 1 Staff Instructor
    NRA Certified Instructor
    Master Class IDPA SSP

    TRAIN with me....http://www.suarezinternationalstore....px?find=harris

  4. #34
    Distinguished Member Array claude clay's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2007
    Location
    ct
    Posts
    1,960
    Quote Originally Posted by Bark'n View Post
    Pretty much my sentiments exactly. In the middle of a gun fight, or any other fight for your life, I believe it is just not possible to keep track of your rounds.

    As far as I'm concerned, if you're attempting to count your rounds in the middle of a gun fight, you're overlooking something else much more critical.

    While the brain can process information quickly and at almost lightning speed, it can not concentrate on two separate tasks at the same time.
    the point i have failed to get across is that it is not a thought process...the counting is just a something that i can do....no effort, no thinking involved. it has allowed me that knowing there one left plus one in the chamber i can move and do one thing rather than another. the 2 other's i have seen that can do it ( observing one in a shoot house and the other at a IDPA) told me much the same--they can not explain it, it just is something they can do. and it has no downside and multiple advantages.

    BigRay--you just keep on doing what your doing....seems to work and i like very much your choice of guns. --trailsides rule!!

    Cruel Hand---you nailed the IDPA. including what many miss out on-the proceedurals. thank you.

    --------------
    and if counting should take away anything from the overall inputs of an 'action'--than do not do it.
    learning is a 2 way street and properly chosen, it is a very long road.

    and for all the thought that went into so many of the comments, again.....thank you.
    Last edited by claude clay; July 15th, 2011 at 09:56 AM.
    Arthritis sucks big-big
    -------------------
    Why do those elected to positions of power than work so hard
    to deny those same opportunities to the same people who empowered them

  5. #35
    VIP Member Array searcher 45's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2009
    Location
    TEXAS
    Posts
    4,161
    My G36 is 6+1 and spare mag gives 13 total, so count and hope to never have to defend yourself.

    Trying to learn how to double tap with the G36 should give good results with 45acp.
    NOT LIVING IN FEAR, JUST READY!!!
    I do not love the bright sword for its sharpness,
    nor the arrow for its swiftness,
    nor the warrior for his glory.
    I love only that which they defend.
    -J.R.R. Tolkien

  6. #36
    Distinguished Member Array TSiWRX's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2011
    Location
    Cleveland/Shaker Heights, Ohio - USA
    Posts
    1,425
    Quote Originally Posted by BigRay View Post
    Fascinating thread, and one to which I'd like to offer a new twist.

    ....

    Alas, it came with a problem that I am still wrestling with. Due to the shape of the P220 SAO thumb safety, if I rested both thumbs on the lever, they would also prevent the slide lock lever from engaging 100 percent of the time. Because of the increase in accuracy I get in self-defense shooting scenarios by "stacking" my thumbs, I continued to do so. After thousands (a guess) of uncounted rounds, I've never had a misfire or failure of any type (other than the slide lock issue) with my trusty P220, so I know when I pull the trigger and it goes, "click," it's time to drop the mag and insert a new one.

    This practice is now second-nature to me. I ask, at the risk of being piled-upon: am I correct to go with what works best for me, or should I retrain myself to reposition my thumbs when drawing my weapon so I gain the "luxury" of the slide locking back after every last round?
    That's a great question, BigRay, and I'm dying to hear more answers. I'm nowhere near as experienced as claude clay or many of the others here, but FWIW, I can't spot a tactical flaw.

    My thinking is that even if the "click" was due to a malfunction, your immediate-action in dropping the mag should mean that you're going to put a new one home, in which case, upon racking the slide to chamber the first round from your emergency-reload magazine, you should also extract/eject a potentially failed-to-fire round. Additionally, the fact that you will be taking a moment, however fleeting, to assess the condition of your firearm as you break it from your shooting grip to actuate the mag-release should make any obvious malfunction - such as a stovepipe or a double-feed - apparent, and with the latter, the increased possibility of the magazine not dropping free, forcing you to lock/retract the slide back manually while stripping out the magazine, would then prompt you to do the "rack-rack-rack" motion to insure extraction and clearance of the double-fed round that's in the breech.

    The only things I can envision that would be a disadvantage would be the potential of losing good rounds from a prematurely ejected magazine - unless you automatically go to, say, an under-arm retention method during even an emergency reload.

    The thing is, even though one of my specific "want" in purchasing a defensive firearm includes the fact that the slide locks-back after the last round, it's not a deal-breaker for me - why? because even as a noob who's only been shooting since November, I know well that you just cannot count on the gun to do what it's supposed to do: it's a machine, and it can and will fail despite even the best maintenance and care, and it may well fail at a most critical moment.

    My class/training/range gun, my full-sized XDm9, has now seen well over 10K rounds through her (again, this is all since this past November). I can say that in all likelihood, some 6- to 7-thousand of those shots were Winchester's "Value White Box" 9x19 115 gr. range fodder.

    I've kept decent track of her stats, and I am pretty sure that her failure rate with the WWB is somewhere on the order of 0.3 to 0.4%, and that, what's more, out of the 530 (if not much more, as many times, for class, I'll actually down-load so as to practice more emergency reloads) magazine changes I've had to do to chew through that many rounds, I've probably seen what, maybe 2% failure-to-lock-back-on-last?

    I'd say that's a pretty darned reliable gun, with some pretty darned reliable magazines, then, right?

    But as I often like to say, most of us who are here aren't here out of a concern for statistics. By all statistics, the vast majority of us - especially someone who leads as sheltered of a life as I do - more than likely will never have to even start towards that draw motion or otherwise fine it the need to defend ourselves. Yet, we're still here, and we are still out on the range shooting, taking training classes and sweating our butts off and bleeding: all in the hopes that if the God-forbid does find us, that we may be a bit more ready for it than the next guy.

    I guess this is the roundabout long way of saying it, and for that, I apologize , but what I wanted to illustrate is that even when you don't have your fingers over the lock/release, the unexpected can still happen - and also, who's to say that in the heat of battle, our ideal grip for some reason doesn't become a little less than ideal, tripping that button/lever?

    I shoot either 'till there's a lull in the battle and I can tactically reload or until my gun, for whatever reason, stops spitting out bullets.

    And when the latter happens, I hope that I've either reached or am well on my way towards cover.

  7. #37
    Moderator
    Array Bark'n's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2007
    Location
    West Central Missouri
    Posts
    9,917
    Quote Originally Posted by claude clay View Post
    the point i have failed to get across is that it is not a thought process...the counting is just a something that i can do....no effort, no thinking involved. it has allowed me that knowing there one left plus one in the chamber i can move and do one thing rather than another.
    Hey, I saw the movie "Rainman," some people are just naturally gifted like that.

    If you can do it, then of course it would be beneficial. I wish I could do it too.

    And I'm not comparing you to the Dustin Hoffman character, just an example of someone who is gifted and able to do certain things others can not.
    -Bark'n
    Semper Fi


    "The gun is the great equalizer... For it is the gun, that allows the meek to repel the monsters; Whom are bigger, stronger and without conscience, prey on those who without one, would surely perish."

  8. #38
    Distinguished Member Array TSiWRX's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2011
    Location
    Cleveland/Shaker Heights, Ohio - USA
    Posts
    1,425
    ^ If my dad were a shooter, he could probably do it.

    The man remembers the location of every item in his warehouse (it's a large one <-- typical Midwestern understatement ) by the item's UPC. I don't think he's forgotten a single telephone number he's ever dialed or otherwise saw.

    Even in my best "math team" days (yes, I was [and still am] a nerd), I could not match his raw calculating capabilities, no matter what tricks I tried.

    Some people are indeed just gifted like that. Others, like my daughter, are just OCD like that!

  9. #39
    Senior Moderator
    Array limatunes's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    Iowa
    Posts
    4,246
    I'm not a "gifted" counter and while I do count my rounds while at the range, etc, I don't expect to be able to keep a perfect mental record of them while in the heat of a self defense emergency.

    Even in moments in IDPA while doing a particularly challenging stage and trying to remember the rules or course of fire I will forget whether I'm down to 12 or 10 and I'm certainly not going to stand there and take the time to think, "Well, it was two on the first target, three on the second, two on the third," etc.

    I have a rough estimate about how much I have left. Sometimes I'm pleasantly surprised by a round or two I thought I'd shot. Sometimes I'm not surprised to find my firearm empty.

    Either way, counting is very low on the priority list to all of the other fundamentals: accuracy, scanning, all that other jazz.

    If I go to slide lock, so be it.

  10. #40
    Distinguished Member Array claude clay's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2007
    Location
    ct
    Posts
    1,960
    limatunes, as i had said before--if you have to conciously count than this is not what will work for you.

    and if counting should take away anything from the overall inputs of an 'action'--than do not do it.

    TSiWRX, your dad, the two men i have meet over the years and myself seem to have in commen a photographic memory.
    a sub-concious voice updates me without my asking or thinking about it--how many rounds expended/left. it alerts me to other things happening
    about me also, an aid in SA amoung other things.

    gifts usually have hidden costs....in my case i have never been able to master a foreign language
    --and often english seems that way too.
    Arthritis sucks big-big
    -------------------
    Why do those elected to positions of power than work so hard
    to deny those same opportunities to the same people who empowered them

  11. #41
    VIP Member Array JDE101's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2009
    Location
    Ohio
    Posts
    6,650
    Quote Originally Posted by Bark'n View Post
    Now why am I not surprised at that.

    No round in the chamber, and no spare reload?

    If you've ever had any professional training, I'd be surprised. I'd also be asking for my friggon money back. Sheesh.
    +1! I hit the like button, but since I have previously read all the posts in several different threads, I decided this needed more than just a "like". I sincerely hope certain individuals will open their minds and try to learn from those who have more knowledge and experience, instead of being defensive and argumentative and always trying to defend their preconceived and mistaken views. I guess I'm old enough and mature enough to realize I don't know everything, whereas knowing everything is a sign of youth and immaturity. This is not intended to "flame" anyone--just an attempt to get some people to open their minds to learn some things before they get themselves and/or their loved ones injured or killed if a crisis situation were to unfortunately occur! Just my .02.
    Live to ride, ride to live. Harley Road King And keep a .45 handy Kimber Custom TLE II

  12. #42
    VIP Member
    Array tacman605's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2010
    Location
    Arkansas/On the X in Afghanistan
    Posts
    3,053
    Now why am I not surprised at that.
    No round in the chamber, and no spare reload?
    If you've ever had any professional training, I'd be surprised. I'd also be asking for my friggon money back. Sheesh.


    Just hitting the like button was not enough. You took the thought and words right out my mouth. But he would not have to worry about this because the attacker has been scared away simply by the sight of a weapon or he has used his skills to disarm the BG with his first response strike.

    Fight, Assess, Scan and Top off. Whether you have fired two or twenty.
    "A first rate man with a third rate gun is far better than the other way around". The gun is a tool, you are the craftsman that makes it work. There are those who say "if I had to do it, I could" yet they never go out and train to do it. Don't let stupid be your mindset. Harryball 2013

  13. #43
    TVJ
    TVJ is offline
    Senior Member Array TVJ's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2009
    Location
    Tejas
    Posts
    762
    Quote Originally Posted by Bark'n View Post
    Hey, I saw the movie "Rainman," some people are just naturally gifted like that.

    If you can do it, then of course it would be beneficial. I wish I could do it too.

    And I'm not comparing you to the Dustin Hoffman character, just an example of someone who is gifted and able to do certain things others can not.
    I agree. More power to you Claude. Use your gift/ability!
    The United States Constitution 1791. All Rights Reserved.

    "When plunder becomes a way of life for a group of men in a society, over the course of time they create for themselves a legal system that authorizes it and a moral code that glorifies it."
    - Frederic Bastiat

  14. #44
    Distinguished Member Array TSiWRX's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2011
    Location
    Cleveland/Shaker Heights, Ohio - USA
    Posts
    1,425
    Quote Originally Posted by claude clay View Post
    gifts usually have hidden costs....in my case i have never been able to master a foreign language
    --and often english seems that way too.
    For my father, it's an inability to sometimes name objects - be it in his native tongue or in English.


    -----


    Quote Originally Posted by limatunes View Post
    If I go to slide lock, so be it.
    Something that I'd like to share with the newer shooters who are reading this thread is probably something that you and most other of the experienced shooters here already know, but which can escape newbies like myself:

    To always "present a threat" to the threat you're facing.

    And that means that even if your firearm goes to slide-lock or experiences a malfunction, you still need to have your game-face/war-face on, and you need to resist the urge, particularly during training (which will then hopefully ingrain so that you'd do it, under a real-life stress emergency), to say things like "oh no, I'm out!" or otherwise betray your moment of tactical weakness to the enemy/ies that you're facing.

  15. #45
    Senior Moderator
    Array limatunes's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    Iowa
    Posts
    4,246
    Quote Originally Posted by TSiWRX View Post
    And that means that even if your firearm goes to slide-lock or experiences a malfunction, you still need to have your game-face/war-face on, and you need to resist the urge, particularly during training (which will then hopefully ingrain so that you'd do it, under a real-life stress emergency), to say things like "oh no, I'm out!" or otherwise betray your moment of tactical weakness to the enemy/ies that you're facing.
    LOL.. this reminds me of my VERY FIRST gun-fighting class. I forgot to reload the spare magazine on my belt and of course was out of ammo WAY before the other students who actually had loaded spare magazines.

    I just stopped shooting and stood there.

    The instructor yelled, "WHAT ARE YOU DOING?"

    "I'm out," I said.

    "Start screaming!" he said.

    I said, "Okay."

    He says, "No.. I mean it! Start screaming your head off, 'Get out of here or I'll shoot you again!' Start cussing. PRETEND you have more ammo."

    I said, "Okay."

    He said, "Well?"

    So I started screaming like a mad woman while pointing an empty gun at a paper target threatening to shoot it again and then we got the lecture on keeping the game face and remembering that even if we have to use our empty guns to beat a bad guy to death, the fight is not over until it's over and it doesn't matter if you have no more ammo or not.

    I laugh when I think about it because it was kind of funny but still a good learning experience.

Page 3 of 5 FirstFirst 12345 LastLast

Links

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •  

Search tags for this page

counting rounds while shooting
,

low round count shooting drills

,
reload on last round
,
required to shoot to slidelock and reload
,
shoot to slidelock or no
,
shooting round count
,

shooting to slidelock

,

slide lock defensive situation

,
tactical shooting counting shots
,

tactical shooting, counting rounds

,

tactical vs slide lock reloads

,
tsiwrk captain crush
Click on a term to search for related topics.