Shoot to slide lock or count rounds? - Page 4

Shoot to slide lock or count rounds?

This is a discussion on Shoot to slide lock or count rounds? within the Defensive Carry & Tactical Training forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; Mental picture of someone standing there with an empty gun screaming at a target is very funny, lol...

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Thread: Shoot to slide lock or count rounds?

  1. #46
    VIP Member Array glockman10mm's Avatar
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    Mental picture of someone standing there with an empty gun screaming at a target is very funny, lol
    Bark'n and tacman605 like this.
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  2. #47
    Member Array BigRay's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by limatunes View Post
    So I started screaming like a mad woman while pointing an empty gun at a paper target threatening to shoot it again and then we got the lecture on keeping the game face and remembering that even if we have to use our empty guns to beat a bad guy to death, the fight is not over until it's over and it doesn't matter if you have no more ammo or not.

    I laugh when I think about it because it was kind of funny but still a good learning experience.
    Wow, the excellent points keep piling up in this thread! Sorry, limatunes, if the last one came at your expense, so to speak. But it reminded me of Rule Number One I stressed in many years as a baseball coach: Practice like you're in a real game, because you're sure enough going to play in a game just like you practice.
    Now excuse me while I go practice my self-defense screaming (seriously!)
    limatunes likes this.
    BigRay

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  3. #48
    Member Array Macantic's Avatar
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    Since my gun doesn't have a slide lock,i count the rounds,which is pretty easy since it only holds six +1,i know that after 3 double taps,its time to reload.
    Retired (traveling and loving it!)
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  4. #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by adric22 View Post
    I've been trying to get myself in the habit of counting. I don't currently carry any extra magazines with me, so the slide lock issue doesn't matter. But I figure if I'm ever in a fire-fight it might be good to know how many rounds I have left without pulling the magazine to count. Unfortunately, I haven't got myself into the habit just yet.
    I am curious - have you ever practiced clearing malfunctions, and if so how do you deal with a double-feed situation?
    Battle Plan (n) - a list of things that aren't going to happen if you are attacked.
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  5. #50
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    Quote Originally Posted by MattInFla View Post
    I am curious - have you ever practiced clearing malfunctions, and if so how do you deal with a double-feed situation?
    Transition, transition, transition! Drop the damn thing on the deck and go for my BUG!
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  6. #51
    Distinguished Member Array claude clay's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bark'n View Post
    Transition, transition, transition! Drop the damn thing on the deck and go for my BUG!
    there are some who profess to not carrying an extra magazine or a BUG.
    i guess a conversation with Darwin would be on their bucket list.
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  7. #52
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    In IPSC and IDPA I count rounds. In Gun Fighting School Training I don't count and have my partner load dummy rounds in my mags for extra stress. You get to a point when it goes click and not bang that you can get the gun going very fast with clearance drills depending on the stoppage. I want my gun to go bang and keep training to make it do so. Failure drills are the best in my opinion right after dry fire training drills.
    Praise the Lord my Rock, who trains my hands for war, my fingers for battle --- Psalm 144
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  8. #53
    Senior Member Array adric22's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MattInFla View Post
    I am curious - have you ever practiced clearing malfunctions, and if so how do you deal with a double-feed situation?
    Are you asking in relation to counting shots, or just in general? Now when you say double feed, I assume you mean a situation where there has been a failure to extract, and the next round is trying to be fed into a firing chamber that has a stuck shell in it. Well, honestly, in 15 years of owning a Glock, I've never had this happen. I have had it happen in my .22 pistol a few times. I have simulated the scenario a few times by placing a snap-cap in the middle of my magazine. The typical way I would clear it would be drop the magazine, and rack the slide 3 or 4 times, then pop the magazine back in.

  9. #54
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    I can't count like that. So, i'll shoot until I have opportunity to reload, or sidelock, whichever comes first.
    Trust in God and keep your powder dry

    "A heavily armed citizenry is not about overthrowing the government; it is about preventing the government from overthrowing liberty. A people stripped of their right of self defense is defenseless against their own government." -source

  10. #55
    Distinguished Member Array claude clay's Avatar
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    MattinFl--there you have it, words not of experience from someone who admits to having none about how it 'typically' would work in the world he reads about.

    I'll file this under 'words to die for' and move on with the reality we share.
    ------------

    Blue Thunder, if during a course of fire a trigger pull does not elicit a 'bang' a glance at the top of the slide tells my fingers
    what action to perform. being that failour drills...all the kinds, is essential to being a competent gun handler, malfunctions--and rectifying them, is as second nature as driving and reacting to a bouncing ball.
    if you consciously have to think about either one, chance grows that someone dies.
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  11. #56
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    Quote Originally Posted by adric22 View Post
    Are you asking in relation to counting shots, or just in general? Now when you say double feed, I assume you mean a situation where there has been a failure to extract, and the next round is trying to be fed into a firing chamber that has a stuck shell in it. Well, honestly, in 15 years of owning a Glock, I've never had this happen. I have had it happen in my .22 pistol a few times. I have simulated the scenario a few times by placing a snap-cap in the middle of my magazine. The typical way I would clear it would be drop the magazine, and rack the slide 3 or 4 times, then pop the magazine back in.
    Just because it hasn't happend doesn't mean it wont happen, gun fights are far from a perfect day at the range. The proper way to clear the malfuction would be to tap the bottom of the magazine (hit it hard, this is to make sure it's seated properly) and then rack the slide to remove the problem cartridge and then get back in the fight. This should solve the majority of problems and get you back in the fight faster. If that doesn't work you would then drop the magazine and let it fall (just in case it is the issue, you don't want to keep trying to use a problem magazine) rack the slide a few times to make sure the malfunction is cleared, insert a new magazine, chamber a round and get back into the fight. And it goes without saying all this should be done behind some sort of cover (or at the very least concealment) if at all possible.


    Edit: Here is a video that illustrates the above. He does show retaining the magazine which would be useful if you don't carry a spare. I was always taught to let the magazine go in case it's the cause of the malfunctions.

    Last edited by fastk9dad; July 17th, 2011 at 08:47 PM.
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  12. #57
    Distinguished Member Array TSiWRX's Avatar
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    ^ Now that's elegant.

    I now see why my instructor favors Clint Smith so much, himself.

    I can see my malfunction drills changing, after having seen that.



    ------------



    adric22, please, please, please do practice that drill more than "a few" times.

    As humans, we're all different, but we all need a certain number of "reps" before our brains are able to ingrain those motions - and in a stressed situation, those actions which are not ingrained will rapidly come to be known, and in the worst way possible.

    Particularly for someone who does not carry a spare magazine, malfunction clearance drills - with specific mind paid to retention of the magazine - becomes of even more importance.

    I haven't shot for nearly as long as you have. I'm a beginner, as everyone here knows. I've only been shooting since November. But what I have done is send some 10K+ rounds downrange, on my main HD/class/range gun alone, in that time, and I can honestly say that this devotion, at least on the square range, shows clear: just ask any of my instructors or classmates.

    With that round-count as a frame of reference, I have had only one single double-feed. This occurred with dirty ammo/magazine which I had, on that same night in training, dropped in the mud and simply "rinsed-out" with a little water.

    That's one hundredth of a percent: a 1:10000 failure rate.

    I have about 3K rounds on my carry gun, and it has had one single stovepipe, induced by my having severely limp-wristed its action: I was already fatigued from that day's shooting, and what's more, I also had a wrist injury.

    The thing is, even with such extraordinarily low failure rates, firearms are machines, and no matter how well you take care of them or feed them, they will, at some point or another, fail. Sure, the odds are slim, but once again, we don't carry to play the odds, do we? Playing it purely by statistics, it seems silly to even carry a gun....

    But that's not why we carry.

    We carry so that if the worst possible scenario does come to find us one day, we are more prepared than "the next guy/girl."

    Knowing how to run these remediation measures on your firearm is an absolute MUST, and you absolutely MUST drill them into your brain and muscles so that they are nothing more than second nature, so that you can keep your eyes and your brain "in the fight" and your feet moving towards cover and/or tending to your daughter, when it all does go wrong.

    In my last training class, encouraged by the instructor, I'd set up so many malfunctions (using spent casings randomly distributed into my live magazines) that other students even stopped to ask why I was having so much problems with my gun. Not only that, but I elicited a blister, a cut, and even a bruise (which lasted for two days!!!) on the heel of my support hand, from having done the "tap-rack-assess/bang" drill so many times.

    By the middle of the day, the instructor was stopping the class so that I could demonstrate malfunction clearance to other students: and he'd even given me the praise of "before I could even yell at you to clear the malfunction, you'd already done so and was shooting!" I took the praise and worked even harder, putting in perhaps twice as many spent casings after that.

    Not only that, but you have to realize that these malfunctions can really present themselves in rather nasty ways.

    The night that I encountered my first double-feed?

    Maybe the cold rain pounding on my head and hands had something to do with it, but I simply could not extract the spent casing from the breech. I'd done everything right up to that point: locked slide back, stripped out the magazine that's still feeding so as to relieve tension - but I just could not rack out that casing: the slide wouldn't even move.

    My instructor came over, gently took the gun from me, and said: "Allen, you really have to get yourself a good grip, and just RIP that casing out." In one clean stroke, he'd done it.

    I was mortified.

    I truly try to do my dues as a student. I watch the Magpul DVDs beginning-to-end before every class, and I train, myself, daily on drills ranging anywhere from dry-fire to movement to malfunctions. I really do try to do my dues.

    Yet, that night, I'd failed.

    But I learned.

    And guess what? At my next class, when a fellow student pulled himself off the line and said "hey, I just can't get that casing out of there," I went over to him, and explained to him what had happened to me, and what my instructor did - and showed him the right way to do it. Grab it and rip. His was a Glock, and he's had the thing for many, many years - also with no malfunctions. He thanked me profusely: I said "you're most welcome - but do me a favor, pass-on that knowledge you know have."

    I'm not the strongest guy, but I can crush a Captains of Crush #3, and the man that I helped? sure, he may be a white-collar office-worker who's nearing retirement, but he had a firm handshake, so I doubt that he was hurting there, either. So why could neither of us positively correct our double-feed malfunctions the first time around? Because we didn't know how much force we should have used - because we thought that "oh, man, if I really used that much force, I might hurt my gun!" We didn't know any better because we hadn't ever came upon such a situation, in our practice before.

    The thing is, you can never really plan for these situations. We were lucky, we had these experiences in class. But what would have happened if those situations had occurred out in the real world?

    You've gotta practice, and practice a lot (oh, and yes, a snap-cap or a dummy cartridge works, but a spent casing [just be sure it matches your caliber!] tends to induce "harder" malfunctions), and even more so if you're running multiple weapons or have special needs, such as retention of the magazine, in-mind.

  13. #58
    Member Array RockBottom's Avatar
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    I'm going to keep firing until the damned threat stops. If the gun quits firing and the threat continues, I'll drop the magazine and load another, and continue firing. If I don't have another magazine, or the gun won't fire, and the threat continues, I'll just run like hell.. Real life, real solutions. Yeah, I'm going to sit and count rounds. Give me a break.

  14. #59
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    Seriously. . .

    How do you expect me to count rounds when both hands are wrapped around the grip and I'm wearing shoes? And I thought all you dead-eyes only needed one shot?
    Retired USAF E-8. Lighten up and enjoy life because:
    Paranoia strikes deep, into your heart it will creep. It starts when you're always afraid... Buffalo Springfield - For What It's Worth

  15. #60
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    Shoot till slide lock?... Seriously?

    First off. I wouldnt consider an armed confrontation in the civilian world to be combat, or comparative to most military situations. So I wont use the word combat.

    I have a problem with shooting till slide lock. Well two problems... First is the expediture of ammunition. Every round you fire must eventually stop moving. And the shooter is responsible for every round he puts down range. And responsible for the damage each round does. Some people say they will shoot till slide lock or till the threat is neuteralized. I cant think of any situation where 13 rounds need be fired in rapid succession in the civilian world.
    Second. OK so someone shoots till slide lock. Then what? Your out. A reload? More indiscriminate firing? While you doing this reload the perps friend you failed to see put's one in you.

    IN an armed confrontation in the civilian world it is very easy to get tunnel vision. Focus on one threat. There may be only one threat, or maybe two or three. Practice, both with your firearm, and your mind I believe that anyone can control their perseption, and their motor skills. Gaming like IDPA is great IMO. They force the participant to think and shoot at the same time. Learned behaviour, learned mental skills, learned motor skills...

    My post is only my opinion, and not material from some big name school, or instructor. Just based on my own experience, and training.

    Spuk!

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