Some older methods are not always wrong

This is a discussion on Some older methods are not always wrong within the Defensive Carry & Tactical Training forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; Hi - I went to Frontsight down in NV and enjoyed the course but what they teach in the way of carrying, drawing and shooting ...

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Thread: Some older methods are not always wrong

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    New Member Array pghd's Avatar
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    Some older methods are not always wrong

    Hi - I went to Frontsight down in NV and enjoyed the course but what they teach in the way of carrying, drawing and shooting maybe a "safe" method but it is not the most effective in terms of CQB.

    William E. Fairbairn developed techniques in the 1930's along with his partner Eric Sykes (Shanghai Police) which were then taken up by Rex Applegate of the OSS. This is still the most effective handgun method. Crossdraw carry means the right hand can more reliably locate the web of the hand into the pistol. Cross draw means that the pistol can be better protected whilst under sudden attack allowing it to be drawn whilst fending off. Drawing and bringing to aim is way faster. Of course the point shooting technique is also single handed for the first shots, not double handed.

    The downside is that the muzzle tends to sweep to the left so the risk of shooting someone on the next point is increased for beginners.

    Don't forget these older methods - they work.

    FYI WEF founded the first ever SWAT team, his force were the first police force worldwide to use semi autos, the 1911, and the first to employ the Thompson.

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    Distinguished Member Array claude clay's Avatar
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    good 1st post

    and spot on in that those who do not study the past are doomed to .....
    well, its better to know than to kinda think you do.
    and those old guys dealt with the docks in the Shanghai days.

    studied what was not working and came up with what did using tools of the day.

    i have a lot of respect for them.

    and it is the old 'stories' i find of interest; not so much the new 'ways'
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    Distinguished Member Array Stubborn's Avatar
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    Welcome from Florida! Good 1st post.
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    VIP Member Array glockman10mm's Avatar
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    I am well versed in Fairbairn and Sykes, and there methods. While there methods are sound teachings, one must remember that many things are subjective. There is no one technique that is the best.
    But, the best technique is the one you use at the time.

    Also remember, for safety reasons the use and practice of some techniques are impractical in a group setting.
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    Member Array Cruel Hand Luke's Avatar
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    I'm going to have to disagree with ...

    "Crossdraw carry means the right hand can more reliably locate the web of the hand into the pistol. Cross draw means that the pistol can be better protected whilst under sudden attack allowing it to be drawn whilst fending off. Drawing and bringing to aim is way faster."

    I didn't realize there was a rash of webs of hands not finding pistols in people who have been trained well.

    And with the crossdraw, it really is going to depend on where your hands are when your draw begins. With the easy availability of a digital timer you can test this now. test it WITH A TIMER and see which is faster.

    I also do not agree that it is easier to defend. Again, test it. Get a NON COMPLIANT opponent and an airsoft gun..or hell, even a watergun and start with him 2 arms length away. You go for your gun and see how easy or hard it is to defend it from crossdraw. Id MUCH prefer trying to disrm someone drawing from crossdraw than someone drawing from strongside....it is easier for me get to the gun, to stay out of the line of the muzzle and easier for me to DESTROY your gun arm. You are essentially giving me the back of your arm and having to do more articulation to get the muzzle turned toward me...again...go work it with a NONCOMPLIANT oponent and you might change your mind on crossdraw.

    While many of F and S's conclusions are stil valid, some are a little dated now due to better technology of holsters available and better understanding of proxemics, OODA cycle and frankly the difference in clothing and customs now and here vs then and there.
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    VIP Member Array Guantes's Avatar
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    +1 CHL,

    Bryce, Jordan and others come to mind.
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    I prefer the appendix mode to crossdraw.

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    Member Array Cruel Hand Luke's Avatar
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    Me too.
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    Distinguished Member Array Bill MO's Avatar
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    Add me to appendix mode too.
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    Member Array ranburr's Avatar
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    Cross draw is about the worst carry method that I can imagine.

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    IMO... while cross draw may not be for me... or for many others... But it has it's place. I have carried cross draw, twist draw, appendix, kidney, strong side hip, pocket, ankle, mexican, perpetrator, shoulder holster vertical, horizontal, and upside down, and chest.

    In my own experience the mode of carry is decided by the dress code, activity, danger presented, kind of duty, comfort, and preference.

    Again in my opinion... speed is the least important consideration when choosing a method of carry. I believe that security, and access are paramount.

    Spuk!

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    VIP Member Array Guantes's Avatar
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    I would somewhat disagree. I consider security and speed of equal importance. Circumstances in any given situation will determine the relative importance of each. Access is a sub factor, as without access, there is no speed.
    "I do what I do." Cpl 'coach' Bowden, "Southern Comfort".

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    VIP Member Array varob's Avatar
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    Crossdraw isn't for me, but still a good first post.

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    Member Array Catalina's Avatar
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    Appendix inside the waistband

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