Where Modern Technique Went Wrong

This is a discussion on Where Modern Technique Went Wrong within the Defensive Carry & Tactical Training forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; WARRIOR TALK NEWS - Where Modern Technique Went Wrong Here is a article written by CR Willams, I found to be very informative others may ...

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    Distinguished Member Array Bill MO's Avatar
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    Where Modern Technique Went Wrong

    WARRIOR TALK NEWS - Where Modern Technique Went Wrong

    Here is a article written by CR Willams, I found to be very informative others may find it of interest too.
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    It's gotta be who you are, not a hobby. reinman45

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    Member Array 45Gunner's Avatar
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    Excellent article and the amount of research that went into the writing is very impressive. It is no surprise that shotgun and rifle numbers are the most impressive. Kind of surprising that the other numbers were as close as they were. What I could not determined by the graphs were the experience level of the shooters that were shooting a particular caliber gun. I consider myself an expert shot and at a distance of say, for conversation sake, 7 feet with a .22 caliber, I would definitely drop an opponent with just a couple of round fired. However, given the same set of circumstance and utilizing a .45, I would drop him in a single round if all I did was shoot a single round. I have trained for years to utilize the triple tap method. I will drop my opponent. I always carry a .45. The writer claims he used several guns of different calibers over a period of time. I would find that to be counter productive to self defense and not sure I really buy what he writes. I also think that the target needs to be considered as to his state of mind. Is he drunk? Is he hopped up on speed? Lots of factors to be considered. I still believe, despite the findings, that a large caliber round, well placed, is going to bring the opponent down in the most expeditious fashion. There are a lot of variable that are not figured into these equations and I am not sure they can be reduced to cut and dry statistics.
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    VIP Member Array glockman10mm's Avatar
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    I agree in part with some of the content. It is certainly true that the Col was first and for most a rifleman. However, I think it is a very broad and bold statement to suggest that suarez is the only group teaching an expanding evolution of pistolcraft. Go tell that to my buddy Clint.

    The problem with the state of training today is that it has grown into an industry unto it's self. Everyone has something to sell, and some will claim their way is the only way.

    Point shooting vs aimed fire? That is an arguement that seems to be raised quite often, but ironically, most who argue it have never actually been in a gunfight. Those who have know that at the moment of truth, this will work itself out.

    We can train shooting fundamentals, and proper use of cover, tactical reloads and other mechanical physical exercises until they are ingrained well enough to work.

    But when it comes to method of application, in the moment of fight or flight, things like point or aimed fire applications are out the window. At that time, the shooters personal ability to deal with the emotions and adreneline dump will determine his actions, ( or inaction) to the threat.

    Training of any type is a good think. It gives the individual who has an interest in these things to learn techniques that "could" apply to the situation he or she is facing. The application however will be determined by the individuals ability to deal with that stress.

    In conclusion, regardless of the content of the training, the fundementals remain the same. What it ultimately voms down to is the individual ability to adapt and respond. Improvise and overcome. Therefore, training should be approached with a problem solving aspect for the student, requiring them to make decisions and solve problems instead of a " if this happens you do this" approach.
    Regardless, some will always run to the fight, while others run away.
    Ignorance is a long way from stupid, but left unchecked, can get there real fast.

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    Distinguished Member Array Bill MO's Avatar
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    glockman10mm I will agree with most of your post. Training like many other things to do with CC needs to be personal choice. No two people see anything alike.

    As to your statement of "I think it is a very broad and bold statement to suggest that suarez is the only group teaching an expanding evolution of pistolcraft"

    I think all schools do that very same thing it is part of the sell to get others to come to them, they have the answer. That's why we all have minds, eyes and feet so we can make our choice.

    My choice was to go with SI and one of the things they teach is point shooting. For me I see that as good, Why? Because my eyesight is not as good as in the past, the days of seeing a sharp clear sight picture is gone.

    I agree with this statement "But when it comes to method of application, in the moment of fight or flight, things like point or aimed fire applications are out the window. At that time, the shooters personal ability to deal with the emotions and adreneline dump will determine his actions, ( or inaction) to the threat".

    In a fight the body falls to its natural state of action. From the readings I have seen in most shooting of LE a low number can remember seeing their sights while in the fight. That can mean two things, first they didn't use them or they can not remember using them after its all over and done with. Both could be valid points. But if they did not use them, then why would one not want to train and practice the act of point shooting before the event?

    I have posted before on this site I have taken Roger Phillips Point Shooting Progressions class and found it to be one of the most informative classes I have taken. While it is on the art of pointing shooting it is so much more. Grip, movement, speed of trigger and yes the amount of the gun seen or even the amount of sights picture needed to make the shot. All of this has to change with the fight being what the fight is including distance, type of threat, type of ground you are fighting on and again much more.

    This is so true "In conclusion, regardless of the content of the training, the fundementals remain the same. What it ultimately voms down to is the individual ability to adapt and respond. Improvise and overcome. Therefore, training should be approached with a problem solving aspect for the student, requiring them to make decisions and solve problems instead of a " if this happens you do this" approach.
    Regardless, some will always run to the fight, while others run away".


    And as I have been taught by Roger and you hear him say it in class as well as in his posts. "The fight is what the fight is"--- "See what you need to see to make the hits you need to make---while not getting hit yourself"

    And NO I have not seen the eye of the tiger, Hope to never have to either, I can out my days and be happy not do so.
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    Bill, I concur with the point shooting also. Unless I misunderstood , I believe that is what has been stated as the basic difference in ideaology seperating Suarez from the rest, is the incorporation of it into the program, suggesting that this is a continuation of the Modern Method.

    If I am not mistaken, during my readings of Cooper's earlier teachings, he did in fact advocate one handed point shooting. In fact, the pictures I have of him and Bill Jordan, show them both in an almost identical " shooting crouch", bent at the waist with pistol drawn and firing at hip level. This makes me believe that Bill Jordans success with his style may have influenced the Col in this area. It is clear that Sykes and Fairbourne were proponents of point shooting also.

    I am in agreement here on many issues discussed, but I am not convinced that the Modern Method has became stagnet. In reality, I believe it has fathered a multitude of techniques that have evolved over the years.

    But, if we look at it from then until now, we must consider also the staggering new models of handguns available now that were not even heard of then. I believe the six shot revolver or the 7 shot 1911 were guns that had an influence on style and technique.

    Not really in disagreement at all on most things here, just like a gentlemens discussion.:)
    Ignorance is a long way from stupid, but left unchecked, can get there real fast.

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    Distinguished Member Array Bill MO's Avatar
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    uderstood and agree
    It's gotta be who you are, not a hobby. reinman45

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    Senior Member Array CR Williams's Avatar
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    If you're referring to Clint Smith, glockman, all I've ever seen from him video-wise was minor variations on MT at best. I'd be pleased if you could direct me to other incidences where he shows more variance or development, as I happen to like Clint and admire the way he teaches.

    The Colonel was very good one-handed, I trow, and he used to teach point-shooting and advocated it as part of the combat-shooting learning curve in his book Fighting Handguns. As I said, he called it 'pointer fire' and one of the early participants in the Bear Valley group won the first three shooting competitions with that method. By the time Modern Technique had it's name, both concepts were all but out of the picture as regards core or primary emphasis. I know that MT does practice one-handed shooting, just not to the same extent others do, and last I saw it was still considered an emergency response more than a situational or tactical option.

    I've seen modifications of MT by the major practitioners and proclaimers of the method on an ongoing basis, but not much of anything in the way of continuing re-examination and real evolution. Even the modifications I have seen appear to my observation to be almost reluctantly applied, and there seems little inclination for re-examination. I saw the same thing in martial arts during and after the 'Bruce Lee era', however you define that.

    Note for the record that Gabe is an Orange Gunsite graduate and worked for Cooper as an instructor at one time. He is more aware of what the Colonel wanted than any of us here, I opine. He is at this time the only one of Cooper's instructors that I have or have had knowledge of (I surely don't know all of them by any stretch of the imagination) that has gone much farther with MT than it was when Cooper died.
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    Quote Originally Posted by CR Williams View Post
    Note for the record that Gabe is an Orange Gunsite graduate and worked for Cooper as an instructor at one time.
    What time frame was this, and for how long?
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    VIP Member Array glockman10mm's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CR Williams View Post
    If you're referring to Clint Smith, glockman, all I've ever seen from him video-wise was minor variations on MT at best. I'd be pleased if you could direct me to other incidences where he shows more variance or development, as I happen to like Clint and admire the way he teaches.

    The Colonel was very good one-handed, I trow, and he used to teach point-shooting and advocated it as part of the combat-shooting learning curve in his book Fighting Handguns. As I said, he called it 'pointer fire' and one of the early participants in the Bear Valley group won the first three shooting competitions with that method. By the time Modern Technique had it's name, both concepts were all but out of the picture as regards core or primary emphasis. I know that MT does practice one-handed shooting, just not to the same extent others do, and last I saw it was still considered an emergency response more than a situational or tactical option.

    I've seen modifications of MT by the major practitioners and proclaimers of the method on an ongoing basis, but not much of anything in the way of continuing re-examination and real evolution. Even the modifications I have seen appear to my observation to be almost reluctantly applied, and there seems little inclination for re-examination. I saw the same thing in martial arts during and after the 'Bruce Lee era', however you define that.

    Note for the record that Gabe is an Orange Gunsite graduate and worked for Cooper as an instructor at one time. He is more aware of what the Colonel wanted than any of us here, I opine. He is at this time the only one of Cooper's instructors that I have or have had knowledge of (I surely don't know all of them by any stretch of the imagination) that has gone much farther with MT than it was when Cooper died.
    "He was more aware of what the Colonel wanted than anyone of us here" Are you sure about that?
    Ignorance is a long way from stupid, but left unchecked, can get there real fast.

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    VIP Member Array jonconsiglio's Avatar
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    Anyone claiming they're the only one's or their way is the way concerns me. Of all the instructors I've dealt with and respect say that their way is just one of the many ways and they encourage you to seek instruction from others as it will given you the widest skill set to choose from.

    I'm not saying anyone in particular said that, i'm just going off of a quick scan of the comments. Some other comments here that concern me is that someone thinks it is fact that they will drop an assailant with one or two shots, etc., even when tweaked out on meth. I can list a few examples of men not dropping with multiple close range, accurate hits from 5.56, one including a heart shot where he still managed to fight for 20 or 30 seconds……which is a very long time in a gunfight.

    With all due respect to Cooper and his students that currently teach, there are other instructors out there that have as much or more to offer as things change with time. Though it may all stem from the same place, others will have different takes on it and techniques to accomplish the same task.

    Any good fighter will understand all modern techniques, though will most likely shine at particular ones over others.
    Proven combat techniques may not be flashy and may require a bit more physical effort on the part of the shooter. Further, they may not win competition matches, but they will help ensure your survival in a shooting or gunfight on the street. ~Paul Howe

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    Senior Member Array Chad Rogers's Avatar
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    My thoughts on the matter:
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    Distinguished Member Array Bill MO's Avatar
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    Chad while I agree with your thoughts on the matter, somethings make sense while others do not. But at the same time what is good for one will be bad for another. This is what makes the world go around.

    I believe what I believe but show me something better and I am open to change
    It's gotta be who you are, not a hobby. reinman45

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    Senior Member Array Chad Rogers's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bill MO View Post
    I believe what I believe but show me something better and I am open to change
    Why would I do that? I'm not at all trying to change the way you think about anything. I respect and admire people who train hard regardless of their chosen path. The fact that I don't kneel at the alter of any one system or methodology doesn't make me a bad person.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chad Rogers View Post
    Why would I do that? I'm not at all trying to change the way you think about anything. I respect and admire people who train hard regardless of their chosen path. The fact that I don't kneel at the alter of any one system or methodology doesn't make me a bad person.
    Well put chad,

    I keep an open mind to what I work on. If a new technique comes along I will look at it, and make my decision then. Putting all your eggs in one basket isnt a good thing IMO..But if what you are doing is working you might feel the need not to change. That is fine as well.
    Don"t let stupid be your skill set....

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    Distinguished Member Array Bill MO's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chad Rogers View Post
    Why would I do that? I'm not at all trying to change the way you think about anything. I respect and admire people who train hard regardless of their chosen path. The fact that I don't kneel at the alter of any one system or methodology doesn't make me a bad person.
    I am not saying you are trying to change my way of thinking. But was trying to say basically the same thing you just said
    It's gotta be who you are, not a hobby. reinman45

    "Is this persons bad behavior worth me having to kill them over?" Guantes

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