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We had a big argument on gun handling at the gunshop - opinions?

6K views 50 replies 42 participants last post by  357and40 
#1 ·
My partner and I had a quite heated disagreement at the gun shop today.

I was looking at the holsters and came up to the counter where she was looking at a semi-auto and had been in discussion with the clerk about it, he had double checked it, taken off the trigger guard, she checked it, took the mag out and had been going over features.

Now, we've all done this at the range a time or two and (horrors!) stopped ourselves and corrected it - here's the scene.

You have shot your clip, the slide is locked back, then from 'muzzle down range', you momentarily turn the gun 90 degrees, essentially pointing it at everyone to your left, depressed the mag disengage then realized you were violating the 'muzzle down range all the time no exceptions' rule. The one or two times I came close to doing this, I didn't get 90 degrees and stopped myself and repointed down range. The gun was empty, but you NEVER point the muzzle at anyone, anytime, no exceptions.

Well, she was facing perpendicularly to the clerk, trying to find a safe direction to dry-fire - again, double/double checked, and then to my surprise, she turned the gun 90 degrees so the muzzle was pointing directly at the clerk.

I stepped forward and (I thought) gently redirected the muzzle off the clerk's abdomen, and said softly 'oh - don't point the gun at him' and gently took it and showed her how to get the slide locked back (requires the mag to be in), and then slide disengaged (had to drop the mag).

She was struggling and (potentially) not aware of the muzzle orientation.

Now SHE said 'hey, he cleared it, I cleared it what right do you have to swoop in and grab the gun out of my hand and tell ME not to point the muzzle at the clerk. Both HE and I knew it was empty'.

My contention was "I don't care, you NEVER, never do that no matter what".

She said (later) "well, if that's forbidden how do you examine a gun at a gun show. There's literally people everywhere and pretty much no place to point it."

I said "Well, first the gun has a tag-tie through the receiver, so it's one step beyond empty."

She said "If you ask, the merchant will remove the tag-tie and then you can look and work the slide and eject the mag and soforth is it OK THEN to point the muzzle where you like?"

I said 'OK that's a good point, but since the gun was in a level above cleared and empty with the tag tie, it's a little less important but I still try to handle it pointing at the floor'.

THEN she said 'ok (smartass) what if I took the just untagtied gun and put in the empty mag and pointed it at my own head and pulled the trigger'.

I was flabbergasted and said 'you'd be ejected from the gunshow and banned for life, probably'.

I just don't know how to get across to her that you never point the muzzle intentionally at anyone no matter what discussion took place before hand, no matter how many times cleared and if you do and someone helps you to redirect at a safe angle you should thank them not get mad and fume at them for an hour afterward. She said 'you made me feel infantilized and I've been handling guns, rifles, shotguns my whole life - a lot longer than you have (me)'.

I said 'ok, I do not want to dis your feeling confident handling the gun, but can you just take my word for it you must exercise proper muzzle control at all time'.

She said 'you're ******* me off, the clerk was OK with it'.

Thoughts?
 
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#2 ·
Yeah leave her in the kitchen while you go shoot.....j/k. On a serious note if she can't follow simple rules like not pointing a weapon at someone then clearly she doesn't need to be handling firearms. If you point a unloaded weapon at someone whether you realize it or not then your eventually gonna point a loaded one, and you may pull the trigger, and well we all know what happens next. P.S I've met many of people who have handled firearms for a long time and still are idiots.




Also before someone else says it. It's a magazine not a clip.
 
#3 ·
You were absolutely correct - there is never a circumstance where it is acceptable to point a firearm at someone you do not intend to shoot.

She was wrong, and lacked the maturity to admit it and accept the correction she clearly needed.

Matt
 
#4 ·
I'll say it first,It's a magazine not a "CLIP",I am right there with you,I don't like getting swept with a muzzle and I don't care if it's supposedly cleared or not.In response to her smartass remark about inserting an unloaded mag and pointing it at her head and pulling the trigger to me would show a level of maturity that isn't high enough to let her handle a firearm in my presence and had I been the clerk would have reacquired the gun and asked her to leave the store.
 
#5 ·
Agreed. As some one who has handled firearms all her life she should know better. She was clearly in the wrong and the fact that she let her emotions rule her and argued the point indicates that she is not to be trusted with a firearm.

I have seen quite a few gun store clerks exhibit this cavalier attitude toward customer gun handling. I suppose they don't want to lose a potential customer.
 
#6 ·
THEN she said 'ok (smartass) what if I took the just untagtied gun and put in the empty mag and pointed it at my own head and pulled the trigger'.
There was a news article posted here last week about a 23 year old guy who was demonstrating how the safety works to his friends by pointing the gun at his own head...guess how that turned out.

Gander Mountain has small backstops to aim at behind the counter, many stores don't have anything, they should all use these to create a SOP.
 
#7 ·
Explain to her that yes the clerk knows it's unloaded, and that she knows it's unloaded, but the other employees
that see her pointing a gun at their coworker don't know that it's unloaded and their weapons are.

Not pointing a gun at someone is not just for the target's safety.
 
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#8 ·
What I tell my daughter is this.. The reason of not pointing an unloaded gun at somebody serves two purposes:\
  1. You never know when you might have forgotten to check the chamber, maybe somebody else loaded it when you weren't looking, etc. It may sound silly, but it has happened before many times and cost people their lives.
  2. The real purpose is to form good habits. If you form a habit of not pointing guns at people even when you think they are unloaded, you will still follow that habit when the gun is loaded, or especially in those times that the gun is loaded but you think it is unloaded. It is sort of like getting into you car and fastening your seat-belt. You do it out of habit, not because you think you are about to have a wreck.
 
#10 ·
Remind her of these few points...

1. It breaks one of the fundamental rules of gun handling which is "Never point the firearm at anything you do not wish to destroy."
Even if she "knows" it's unloaded it's just a bad habit to get into.

2. Pointing a firearm as someone else is one of the most aggressive gestures one person can make to another person.
Sure, the clerk may have been fine with it, THAT TIME, but there are people out there who, even in a gun store or at a gun show, if they see a gun pointing at them they will (and rightfully) EXPLODE!! A former instructor of mine had nearly been shot twice by negligent discharges and vowed that after years of combat he was going to be damned if he was going to be shot teaching a class because someone couldn't follow the rules. I watched him nearly tackle a guy and ream him out for five minutes for ALMOST breaking the 180-degree firing line. I'd love to see the look on her face if she came across someone like him at a show or store.

3. The clerk MAY NOT! have been okay with it.
I've been a gun store clerk in two different stores and a range safety officer. I have had more guns pointed at me than I care to count in a lifetime and I got REALLY sick of it and started correcting people. At first I did not and I thought I was just being polite by not saying anything. Then it dawned on me that it isn't about being polite or not polite, it's about safety. I went off on a customer for taking a Glock (that I had cleared) and pointing it at a fellow employee and pulling the trigger and laughing. That kind of thing is NOT funny, it's juvenile and it's dangerous. Just because this particular clerk did not stop her or say anything to her doesn't mean he wasn't squirming inside and just being quiet so he didn't scare off a potential sale.

4. It isn't an arguing matter.
It isn't about being a smartass or about "Well, I cleared it," it's about what's right. There ARE places that would kick her out for that.. so she might as well get in the habit of doing it the right/safe way. Sometimes, sure, it's inevitable that even though you are trying your hardest not to sweep anyone, especially at a packed gun show, someone ends up stepping infront of the muzzle or putting their foot in front of the muzzle while pointing at the floor. Your reaction should IMMEDIATELY be on the side of safety and you should move it to be pointing in a safe direction again. Err on the side of caution and you'll never have to have an instance where you are saying, "Oh, I thought it was unloaded," or "I thought I checked it," or "I thought it was safe."
 
#11 ·
No one should permit or "put up with" anyone in their presence disregarding any firearm safety rules...especially pointing/sweeping someone.
If it happens around me, I immediately address it, sternly but politely. If it happens again, I'm not so nice. It's kind of like poking a bear in a cage with a sharp stick.

"BadgerJ" I don't envy your position. I just don't think I would want to be around her when guns are present, if she can't abide by the most basic rule.
I'm sure it embarrased her when you corrected her in the store in front of the clerk, but some things just have to be addressed.
You're right, stick to your guns on this one. :hand10:
 
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#12 ·
You were right of course. Not much to discuss about that. The same thing happened to me recently in a gun shop when a rookie clerk pointed one directly at me. The manager who was standing there too immediately took the gun and pointed it away from my breadbasket. No one said a word. The clerk couldn't have missed the message and he probably got some additional instruction after I left. I had looked at the gun and had personally made sure it was clear before the clerk took it back but still felt uncomfortable having it pointed at me.
 
#13 ·
Its a gun shop, the sales man checked it and she checked it. I am not saying she should have pointed it at him and pulled the trigger, I find that the best place to point to dry fire is the upper wall area assuming a single story building. Sounds like you probably embarrassed your partner with your let me show you I am the man kind of deal. You have to get use to looking down the barrel of a weapon if you work in a gun shop, every time I am in one I see someone pointing a weapon at someone else. She is right about a gun show, you can not even pick a weapon up off a table without it pointing at someone.
 
#14 ·
I still remember very clearly the day that, when I was first learning to shoot a BB gun, that I inadvertently pointed it for a moment at my mom. It was unloaded and in safe. I was just a little kid. No matter. I learned that lesson well. I don't let my children point even toy guns at other people.

Sounds to me like your partner was totally out of line, and if that incident had happened in my presence, I might have spoken up. I get kind of nervous and irritated at the range sometimes because newbies (and sometimes seasoned users who should know better) get careless.
 
#16 ·
One time I was at the range, practicing my dry fire. The range master was a serious nag, and decided she needed to literally follow me and my husband around, and point out everything we did wrong. There are no rules posted, so I guess you're supposed to figure things out the hard way.

In order to dry fire, I had to cycle a bullet through, then drop it out. In order for it not to fall on the ground, I had to sort of lean over the bench and tip it out. Well, apparently this woman saw me sweep my muzzle, and, even though there was no one else there, this is a no-no. Frankly, I had no idea. I always keep the business end from people, no matter what, but it never occurred to me that a gun with the mag out, me pulling back on the slide, and the last round being tipped out, could be a danger to the invisible people to my right, who would have also been hanging out near some targets.

She said something about my gun misfiring, and I explained to her that I was practicing a dry fire. It pissed me off that first, she assumed I didn't know how to handle a weapon; second, that she had already nagged about a hundred other things; and third, she embarrassed me.

I guess my point is that everybody makes mistakes. Some are worse than others. Make sure if you point out someone's mistakes, you are doing it to help them, and not make yourself feel superior, because I can guarantee everyone here, and elsewhere, has done something really stupid at least once in their life.
 
#26 ·
Sounds like the range officer who made me reassemble my Glock so the slide could be locked back and declared "safe." I'd finished shooting, was going to install my .22 conversion kit, and was cleaning up the .45 barrel between sessions.
 
#17 ·
You were absolutely in the right about correcting her and will need to continue to stress the importance of never "sweeping" someone with a weapon. However, if she is anything like my wife, she hates to be "corrected" in front of other people. It is pretty much always guaranteed to start an argument. Especially, when its a subject she feels very confident in.

I'm sure that after she has had some time to think about it (cool off and shake off the embarrassment) she will come around and agree that you were right. If I were you, I would give it a little bit of time and then bring up the subject again when it is just the two of you. Then hopefully you can have a logical and reasoned discussion of why it is so important to follow ALL the laws of gun safety and what can happen when the rules aren't followed. If you can't reason with her and get her to agree that sweeping someone with a loaded/unloaded weapon is a no-no. Then you have someone that I personally wouldn't want to be near when there are guns around.
 
#19 ·
...Now, we've all done this at the range a time or two and (horrors!)...
I have to say, BadgerJ, that I've not done that at the range...yet. Either I've been too paranoid about the direction of my barrel or I've learnt myself well.

I do agree that there is no appropriate time to allow a weapon to cover anyone.

...Gander Mountain has small backstops to aim at behind the counter, many stores don't have anything, they should all use these to create a SOP.
I've not noticed these at Gander Mountain before, but I agree that it should be SOP anywhere firearms are to be handled.

What I tell my daughter is this.. The reason of not pointing an unloaded gun at somebody serves two purposes:\
  1. You never know when you might have forgotten to check the chamber, maybe somebody else loaded it when you weren't looking, etc. It may sound silly, but it has happened before many times and cost people their lives.
  2. The real purpose is to form good habits. If you form a habit of not pointing guns at people even when you think they are unloaded, you will still follow that habit when the gun is loaded, or especially in those times that the gun is loaded but you think it is unloaded. It is sort of like getting into you car and fastening your seat-belt. You do it out of habit, not because you think you are about to have a wreck.
I agree, adric. It is all about ingraining good habits.
 
#20 ·
A lot of people have been shot with unloaded weapons. At the range we frequent, behind one of the stalls is a hole in the wall that was left there as a reminder of what an unloaded gun can do.

As others have pointed out, it is a bad habit to get into and it is an extremely aggressive and seriously rude thing to do - besides being terribly unsafe. There is no amount of sorry that can undo this mistake.
 
#22 ·
It worries me when people are so blase about firearms safety.
I've read/heard enough stories about self-proclaimed firearm safety experts negligently firing a round because some brain-fart mistaken an actual round for a snap cap or forgotten there is one in the chamber.
The fact that they pointed the firearm in a safe direction prevented the story from going from supreme embarrassment to tragedy.

NEVER compromise on those safety rules. She may not appreciate it now, but imagine the alternative.
 
#23 ·
There is a place for everything. Safety is another.

I have a friend that is anal about safety. One day he was over to watch me make some holsters and to just hang out shooting the breeze. He was handling the only pistol out at the time and there wasn't any ammo or mags around. Plus I had checked that it was clear and he did the same when I handed it off. Anyways, I started forming the kydex around this pistol and while hand forming it around all the corners of the pistol the muzzle "swept" him. He freaked out DONT POINT THAT AT ME!!!

Give me a break dude. If its been cleared multiple times there is no way for a round to magically jump into the chamber. If you know what is going on ie: holster making or getting the feeling of a pistol at a gun shop when the gun has been cleared dont freak out of one gets pointed briefly at you.

Now if you're at a gun range and there are people actively shooting then thats a whole different ball game. You can politely show a person a different way of operating the firearm without endangering another person.
 
#24 ·
My local gun store had a shooting incident about 25 years ago (shop has since closed), where the clerk was shot and died. The whole incident played out pretty much as you describe.

Moral of the story - NEVER point muzzle at anyone, no matter what, unless you actually INTEND to shoot them.

-
 
#25 ·
In a couple of the gunstores I frequent, there're so many people moving about, on both sides of the counter, that's it's impossible to not point the firearm at someone unless pointing straight up or down. Yeah, it's that busy. It's not something I freak out about when I know the store personnel clear every firearm prior to handing it to the customer.

If someone were to step in and start giving me "safety" lessons, I might not take it too well either. You don't know who you're dealing with, they don't know who they're dealing with, and sometimes it's best not to insert one's nose in the wrong place. If someone asks me for safety comments, I oblige; I don't "tell."
 
#27 ·
Thanks so much for the awesome responses.

Each and everyone had valuable insight.

Though one or two inched toward seeing her point wrt the 'it was a gunshop, the clerk just took the trigger lock off, he cleared it, I cleared it', the vast majority leaned toward 'never, under any circumstances'.

The guy making a kydex holster had a pretty good point - when you're working on the HG in your shop it's pretty hard not to mold the kydex, which requires you to turn this way and that, but I seem to recall that people get interrupted by a phone call, forget they had put a mag (not a clip, which is a holder of hair-dos) in and put a round in the back of the cabinet under the sink - fort. nobody home at the time.

Theoretically, if the whole clerk and I situation had a momentary distraction...and when they turned back to the HG something had changed, it could be a horrifying mistake. She did not have her finger on the trigger.

On the 'we've all done this at the range a time or two', I really should have said 'found myself starting to break the 180 rule and stopped cold' - perhaps my first time at the range, I came close. So yeah, when we go shoot, I insisted that we go to the far right booth, which doesn't protect us against lefties, but...now we shoot at an outdoor range, just we two. (whew).


Occasions when it is impossible not to 'point a muzzle at someone'.

When I go to bed at night, I carefully point the HG in a 'safe direction' and put it above my headboard in an alcove, pointing away from me 180 degrees. BUT, we live in a duplex and it is probably pointed at somebody in the other dwelling.

When i take a shower I try to point it towards the outside back of the house and not towards the living room even though there's a wall in between.

When we carry in a holster, walking down a store aisle, or in a movie line, with a 15 degree cant it's probably pointed at the foot of the person behind me, BUT it's in a proper holster so cross that one off.

Above the bed it's in a holster. But I've stopped doing that and it's in condition 1, out of the holster, safety off (if it has one), thinking I don't want any time gap if I have to grab and go. The XD is ok - the LC9 has a long trigger pull - the Revolver has no safety, but we know guns don't jump down off the wall and shoot people.

At a gun show, it is almost impossible not to sweep someone sometime, and even if we point at the floor and dry fire, if it went off there could be a ricochet. Most people object if someone lasers them - which I've seen happen.
----

My two thoughts - I was not there when the clerk and she cleared it. I walked up and said nice gun and then she did the 180 mag-release thing. I spoke very softly and did not dwell, and did not 'grab the gun out of her hand', just redirected the muzzle about 20 degrees.

The 'grabbing the gun' was a separate action in my opinion but she conflated the two.

She was having trouble with the slide being locked back with the mag in the HG. The clerk said you have to release the mag to drop the slide, but she was momentarily not clear (there's two springs working against you with the Kahr CM9, according to the clerk).

Anyway, my feeling is that you want to create a 'never, ever' habit, not one with one or two EXCEPTIONS. That way lies peril. A habit is a habit, is a habit. Triple clear, hand off triple clear. When she cleans them we put a straw down the barrel and with no mag, pull the chamber to see the orange of the straw knowing there's no barrel obstruction and making it absolutely certain there's no round - bullets are not in the room during cleaning. (now we use a bore snake at the range and don't bench clean, though we bench oil)

No HG is considered 'clear' unless we are alone, and both have checked it. She is EXTREMELY careful of muzzle control at the range, never a fault, and never a fault at home. Ever.

So I'm cutting her some slack. We just have to disagree on this, I suppose. The clerk just stood there impassively and didn't even blink. I might ask him how he feels about the issue (privately) when we go back.

AGAIN - thank you SO much for your input!!
 
#28 ·
I was always taught muzzle control, and never point it at anything you don't plan to shoot, or don't care if it does. All guns are loaded.

I didn't follow that rule "ONCE" .... in my entire life. I KNEW the gun was unloaded.... I had even pulled the mag out..... I KNEW I had racked the slide 3 times (but I didn't look at the chamber where the bullet didn't extract). I was looking down the barrel of this UNLOADED GUN ..... and then I pointed it at the ground and pulled the trigger. IT FIRED off a round ! ! ! Scared me to death to think I could have pulled that trigger while I was looking down that barrel.

Since that day, if I want to look down a barrel I disassemble the friggin gun.

and every gun I handle is treated as if it's loaded.
 
#29 ·
Ticks me off every time some idiot who does the things like your partner did tries to tell me "it's clear, I checked it." Yeah, well I have not checked it so as far as I am concerned it is loaded.

As for gun shows, are there people above you? How about below you? Can you point it at the ceiling or floor?

Every time I take someone to the range with me (and we bring my weapons) before we leave my home, no matter how well they claim to know how to shoot, I ask them if they know what muzzle discipline & trigger finger discipline is. I won't go to the range or let anyone handle my weapons with someone who can not get these two simple things through their heads.

At one local gun shop the owner "cleared" a weapon and pointed the weapon directly at me. I moved quickly & he asked "What? You saw me clear it?" I said "I did not see that the chamber was empty with my own eyes, till then it is not clear." Personally, I could care less if it is clear, I still do not want the barrel of ANY weapon pointed at me.

The OP did right in taking a weapon away from an unsafe person.
 
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