How drawing changes the dynamic

This is a discussion on How drawing changes the dynamic within the Defensive Carry & Tactical Training forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; Not every crime is committed by a BG with a gun intent on shooting someone or a sharp object intent on stabbing someone. Some use ...

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Thread: How drawing changes the dynamic

  1. #1
    Distinguished Member Array deadguy's Avatar
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    How drawing changes the dynamic

    Not every crime is committed by a BG with a gun intent on shooting someone or a sharp object intent on stabbing someone. Some use the weapon to intimidate the victim into submission. However, some use the weapon to intimidate and remove witnesses to their crime. How does drawing your gun in self defense or defense of others change EVERYTHING?

    The BG planning to intimidate only may then become a bad guy willing to kill when he sees your weapon. Of course he may cower and run as well. He goes from being IN control to a situation that in his mind is now out of control. This could be in both a SD situation or defense of others situation (bank robbery, mugging, etc).

    A BG intent on harming or killing those involved in the crime is a bit different. You draw on him and the dynamic of who he must shoot first changes. If he sees your weapon, you become #1 instead of maybe having time to take him down if he starts shooting others first (if this was his initial intent).

    As a CCer it changes for you as well. You may have rehearsed in your mind how it will all go down in every possibly situation. Your thinking is more than likely incorrect or at the very least not even close. You can choose to watch someone else being robbed at gunpoint and not act (alot here refuse to help others), or you can act to defend others. The moment you decide to clear leather EVERYTHING changes for you. You then become a primary target, if you weren't already, and better realize that immediately and act swiftly. Pointing your gun in hopes of scaring a BG is a dangerous approach to consider. Homey may not play that game. Hoping you can chamber a round and shoot before a BG can fire a shot at you is another dangerous approach. You lose a half or full second of the element of surprise in that situation. He hears it and you are now being considered a primary target.

    Drawing your weapon also changes the dynamic for innocent bystanders. Remember, you are no longer one of those people when you draw. You are now involved and not standing by. The IBs are then left with a decision to make that wasn't available to them when first confronted by the BG. The option to fight back or run may now be available versus freezing and hoping not to die. This could lead to them becoming a secondary target if you are taken down by the BG or primary if they attack while he is distracted by you.

    Point here is that everyone must consider how a situation can change once the weapon is drawn or even the act of reaching for a weapon is initiated. It can turn an armed robbery or mugging into a murder very quickly. It can also turn into a justified defense of self or others. Not every BG plans to kill, but drawing a weapon against them may change their plans and you better have what it takes mentally, physically, and I guess ballistically to make sure you can end it quickly. If not, you may become an unintended victim of a crime whereas you could have been the one to save your own or someone else's life.
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  3. #2
    VIP Member Array glockman10mm's Avatar
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    The FBI did a study on this years ago. But it was more to do with how the mind of a felon works, and how it can be used against them.

    It was concluded that if a felon had a gun on you, and demanded money or something else, that a simple " no" would temporarily short circuit their thought process, because they " expect" full fear based compliance.
    This could give you time to act before they recover.

    However, this technique is no guarantee you will come out on top.
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    Ignorance is a long way from stupid, but left unchecked, can get there real fast.

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    Ex Member Array Bombsaway's Avatar
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    Good read, DG. Thanks for posting it.

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    Ex Member Array apvbguy's Avatar
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    someone confronts me with a weapon I am not going to try to analyze his intent.
    I will do whatever I can in a prudent and intelligent way to end the threat.
    Bubbiesdad and Secret Spuk like this.

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    Distinguished Member Array deadguy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by glockman10mm View Post
    The FBI did a study on this years ago. But it was more to do with how the mind of a felon works, and how it can be used against them.

    It was concluded that if a felon had a gun on you, and demanded money or something else, that a simple " no" would temporarily short circuit their thought process, because they " expect" full fear based compliance.
    This could give you time to act before they recover.

    However, this technique is no guarantee you will come out on top.
    Another example of how things can change with the simplest of actions or words.
    There's nothing like a funeral to make you feel alive

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    Distinguished Member Array deadguy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by apvbguy View Post
    someone confronts me with a weapon I am not going to try to analyze his intent.
    I will do whatever I can in a prudent and intelligent way to end the threat.
    It isn't a matter of analyzation on your part. Gun on you and its party time. It's simply a matter of how the entire situation can change based on your actions. The change occurring within the BGs mind more so than the CCer.
    There's nothing like a funeral to make you feel alive

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    Distinguished Member Array Bill MO's Avatar
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    If for what ever reason one draws they are in the fight from that point on by his or her choice. That time needs to be made for carefully. I think this short video show just that.

    GG made his move behind what he thought was a shield of innocent by-standers, placing them in the gunfight also. He can now not shoot for fear of hit by=stander and the BG moves to stay behind the family and shoots away not caring who or how many he hits.

    If one is to engage you need the way clear before ever starting. Draw the BGs gun to you and away from others NOT into them.

    LiveLeak.com - Brazil robber
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    It's gotta be who you are, not a hobby. reinman45

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    VIP Member Array Harryball's Avatar
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    There is a dynamic here that each of us should consider. It goes back to, if your going to do it..DO IT. If not, Dont...
    Don"t let stupid be your skill set....

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    Member Array Wolfrage's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by glockman10mm View Post
    It was concluded that if a felon had a gun on you, and demanded money or something else, that a simple " no" would temporarily short circuit their thought process, because they " expect" full fear based compliance.
    This could give you time to act before they recover.
    Dude has a gun on you and says to give him your money, your response should be "Here you go!". If they wanted to kill you to take your money, you'd already be dead (but yes, I acknowledge there are exceptions). Trying to protect your wallet at gunpoint is statistically a poor choice. Keep your iron holstered at that point. Saying No might give you 2 seconds leadtime, but most average people take (IIRC from reading) at least 3 seconds to draw, aim and fire -- and that 1 second left is far longer than needed for them to pull the trigger.

    Just my humble couple of pennies :D

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    VIP Member Array Guantes's Avatar
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    You make some good points, although I will admit, my first thought was, No crap, really. Upon further reflection the benefit of putting the information forward is apparent .

    I can see where stating some obvious things may be good for those new to ccw/SD and possibly not use to interacting with criminals and those of evil intent.

    I think that worth including is that the decision to act/draw is generally irreversible. Once you act/draw you are likely in it to the bitter end, good or bad, whether you like it or not. This would suggest adequate consideration and strategy before the decision is made.

    An additional factor is ones thoughts relative to the possible outcome if you take no action. There are different points of view on this. I, refuse to rest my well being on the benevolence of an armed criminal.
    "I do what I do." Cpl 'coach' Bowden, "Southern Comfort".

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    Distinguished Member Array deadguy's Avatar
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    Guantes you are correct in saying it goes without saying. For many the "point of no return" isn't considered through only a basic CC class.

    Forums like this allow others to open their minds and eyes to what can happen in any given situation. The dynamics of crime are continuously changing. With more concealed carriers the BGs are adopting other ways to commit illegal and violent acts to avoid being shot. OR, they are deciding that they could be shot and are ready to kill no matter what.

    Along the lines of what Harry said, you better be ready to use it if you clear it. You hesitate, second guess, or fumble through the draw, you and/or others may be hurt.
    There's nothing like a funeral to make you feel alive

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    VIP Member Array Guantes's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wolfrage View Post
    Dude has a gun on you and says to give him your money, your response should be "Here you go!". If they wanted to kill you to take your money, you'd already be dead (but yes, I acknowledge there are exceptions). Trying to protect your wallet at gunpoint is statistically a poor choice. Keep your iron holstered at that point. Saying No might give you 2 seconds leadtime, but most average people take (IIRC from reading) at least 3 seconds to draw, aim and fire -- and that 1 second left is far longer than needed for them to pull the trigger.

    Just my humble couple of pennies :D
    I would submit that in the proximity of a personal robbery, if you cannot draw and project accurate fire in less than three seconds, you are not adequately prepared to defend yourself with a firearm.
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    "I do what I do." Cpl 'coach' Bowden, "Southern Comfort".

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    Ex Member Array apvbguy's Avatar
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    3 seconds is an eternity, under a second is better, and move laterally off line at the same time.
    it's called training and no matter how good you think you are, I bet you're not ( not that I am any good either), you need to work with a good SD trainer and afterwards train on a regular basis.
    going to the range and putting holes in paper from a bench isn't training, it's putting holes in paper. Doing idpa or steel matches isn't SD training either, it's better than just punching holes in paper, IDPA will give you some bad habits for the day you really need to defend yourself.
    bottom line is find some good SD trainer, train with him then go home and practice, alot!

    rant off

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    Senior Member Array threefeathers's Avatar
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    5 or so years ago I stopped a robbery at the Hometown Buffet in Tucson. Short story as I've described it here before but when I drew the perp dropped his knife and ran. A Sig 229 in 357 Sig was looking him in the eyes. He lost all courage.

  16. #15
    Distinguished Member Array deadguy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by threefeathers View Post
    5 or so years ago I stopped a robbery at the Hometown Buffet in Tucson. Short story as I've described it here before but when I drew the perp dropped his knife and ran. A Sig 229 in 357 Sig was looking him in the eyes. He lost all courage.
    this is what we all pray will happen.
    There's nothing like a funeral to make you feel alive

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