SD Training-train to reality.

This is a discussion on SD Training-train to reality. within the Defensive Carry & Tactical Training forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; CAVEAT: Below is simply my observations and opinions. I am not an instructor, but I did survive 6 years of combat during my 30 year ...

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Thread: SD Training-train to reality.

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    Senior Member Array wjh2657's Avatar
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    SD Training-train to reality.

    CAVEAT: Below is simply my observations and opinions. I am not an instructor, but I did survive 6 years of combat during my 30 year Marine Corps career. Just read and consider. Then adopt or disregard as it fits your mode of defense. This is not set forth any sort of definitive gospel!

    Training can help, but if it is to become "second nature" it must simulate the actual conditions under which you are likely to be attacked. An LEO needs to train at all ranges because his uniform and aggressive posture may draw early fire at a distance. In my case my threat is a rush from 21 feet or less in a dark parking lot or at an ATM. The training for these two scenarios are totally 180 degrees out. I train for in close (<21 ft ) pointed, rapid fire (empty gun at COM)because this is most likely what I will need. I will be in a mugging situation, not a gunfight.

    I attended GUNSITE in the old days when Jeff Cooper was still honcho and the training I received there was great for gun fighting and combat. However, it is just about useless for my mugging scenario. It is the same reason I went from a semi-auto in an OWB holster to a revolver in the pocket for carry. I won't have time for more than five shots (I will be lucky to get off two or three!) and definitely no time to clear a Failure to Feed or a misfire.

    Definitely train, but train to your needs, not to whatever is currently "cool" at the schools. Training to all scenarios is a lesson in rhetoric. There is as much difference between distant (>15 Yards) aimed handgun fighting and in your face (<21 ft) point or even hip shooting as there is between a sniper and busting down the door of a house and rushing the room types of shooting. One of them will become the second nature reaction you need. Practicing both means neither one will set as a reaction but will remain a mental option. At 10 feet you have no time for mental options.

    SA helps but you eventually need to get to your car and you can't always park under the lights. I always walk to my car with my hands in my pocket (see mode of carry above).

    Again, I train to a sudden, short burst of action in close. Your scenario may be totally different, in which case train to the predominate scenario.
    Retired Marine, Retired School Teacher, Independent voter, Goldwater Conservative.

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    Distinguished Member Array claude clay's Avatar
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    but train to your needs

    properly said. actually, you said a lot of 'proper' things.
    train as you perceive yourself moving through your day and the various events that may occur. try not to drift far off the
    track of what ifs to the point of absurdity. though today what occurs is muchly different than 30 years ago.

    revolver in the pocket for carry. I won't have time for more than five shots (I will be lucky to get off two or three!)

    this is reality. having a lot of rounds on board (and extra mags) will seldom make a difference.
    i say seldom though i think never. ahh--what about flash mobs you say.
    i have other thoughts besides shooting my way into history.

    again, well said wjh
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    Distinguished Member Array Bill MO's Avatar
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    I agree with the distance one needs to train from and the practice of point shooting. Do not agree with the only needing 5 shots. You can shot 5 rounds in a heart beat what happens if you need it for two?

    Here is a link to an actual shooting from WarriorTalk

    Warrior Talk Forums

    I quickly drew my Walther P-99 from my AIWB Archangel holster and delivered 7 rounds into my adversary. 7 rounds ---- 7 hits of 124 grain Speer Gold Dots. I figured he was dead as i shot hit to the ground. Apparently one of shots were spinal column as the guys eyes are open but he can not move any extremety!!
    Did he need all 7 rounds in one guy? Maybe not, but what if the others hadn't run?

    I will continue to carry my 14 rounds---Thank You very much!!!
    It's gotta be who you are, not a hobby. reinman45

    "Is this persons bad behavior worth me having to kill them over?" Guantes

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    The mugging scenario is the most likely any of us will encounter outside our homes. Because it is close up, it is advisable to consider training with additional methods; pepper, knife, H2H, cane/walking stick, purse as weapon.
    The element of surprise benefits the BG and may preclude your getting to a weapon.

    E.g., ATM--- Usually both hands are busy. You can't keep one in your pocket all the time easily. Press buttons with one hand and grab the money with the other, then fiddle around finding the receipt. Meanwhile someone can run up on you, grab your waist from behind and spin you around. That sudden motion might so disorient that you won't be able to use your gun. They could put a weapon to your back or neck. You need to be able to counter to gain opportunity to get to the weapon.

    I was NEVER interested in martial arts until I began to carry. Then I realized all the limitations of the handgun as a defensive weapon, the legal limitations and the combat-situation related limitations, and got a new perspective on the importance of additional methods.
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    Side comment - I never use ATMs. It is a "Hey look, I'm completely distracted while I try to read this faded screen, but you know I'll have cash any moment now".
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    Quote Originally Posted by WHEC724 View Post
    Side comment - I never use ATMs. It is a "Hey look, I'm completely distracted while I try to read this faded screen, but you know I'll have cash any moment now".
    My wife will not use an ATM. But, you still have to walk outside the bank money in hand, purse, pocket. You still have to open the car to get in, at which point a mugger can do his thing quickly.

    There are no easy answers. THere are no complete answers. Sometimes no matter how prepared we try to be, stuff happens.
    If the Union is once severed, the line of separation will grow wider and wider, and the controversies which are now debated and settled in the halls of legislation will then be tried in fields of battle and determined by the sword.
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    While this is generally very good advice, there is a flip side: Focusing so much on what you expect to happen that you become fixated - this is the scenario that YOU envision, so you train for it to the exclusion of everything else. Unfortunately, it's the BG who actually gets to choose the scenario, and he might not know what you've been training for. A broad spectrum of training in fundamental techniques is, in my opinion, better than training for any one particular scenario to the exclusion of everything else.
    A man fires a rifle for many years, and he goes to war. And afterward he turns the rifle in at the armory, and he believes he's finished with the rifle. But no matter what else he might do with his hands - love a woman, build a house, change his son's diaper - his hands remember the rifle.

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    VIP Member Array Guantes's Avatar
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    I agree with OPFOR and the OP.
    How so? By putting the majority of effort in the area that one perceives as the most likely they will encounter, but also putting some effort into other possibilities. I do it by zones (distance) incorporating appropriate techniques for the zone. This also reduces choices to those appropriate to the particular zone, thereby cutting reaction time.
    Secret Spuk likes this.
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    Senior Member Array CR Williams's Avatar
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    Yes, you should begin with the most likely threat scenarios and environments and the most likely encounter conditions you should face.

    But you should not stop there, you should not limit yourself completely to that. Make it the priority and focus, but take some time and expand from that.

    Consider the recent outlier, the man at the BBQ in Carson City NV with a shot at the man with the AK heading for the IHOP. Somewhere between 50 and 65 yards. One of the unsaid reasons he did not take the shot, I'm willing to bet, was that he hadn't work any at that range because he didn't expect to have a situation where he would have a shot at that range. It happened anyway, and he wasn't fully confident he could make it, so he didn't take it.

    Fine to work mostly in the probable areas of threat, but understand that reality does present things outside of that from time to time. So some time and effort and consideration of things outside of your 'normal' threat zone is not a bad idea, and will often help you deal with the most likely problems as well.
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    Senior Member Array wjh2657's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CR Williams View Post
    Yes, you should begin with the most likely threat scenarios and environments and the most likely encounter conditions you should face.

    But you should not stop there, you should not limit yourself completely to that. Make it the priority and focus, but take some time and expand from that.

    Consider the recent outlier, the man at the BBQ in Carson City NV with a shot at the man with the AK heading for the IHOP. Somewhere between 50 and 65 yards. One of the unsaid reasons he did not take the shot, I'm willing to bet, was that he hadn't work any at that range because he didn't expect to have a situation where he would have a shot at that range. It happened anyway, and he wasn't fully confident he could make it, so he didn't take it.

    Fine to work mostly in the probable areas of threat, but understand that reality does present things outside of that from time to time. So some time and effort and consideration of things outside of your 'normal' threat zone is not a bad idea, and will often help you deal with the most likely problems as well.
    Over 50 yards at a moving target is not pistol range. That is rifle range. IMHO To attempt a 65 yard shot on a moving target iusing a handgun n a public area is irresponsible.
    Retired Marine, Retired School Teacher, Independent voter, Goldwater Conservative.

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    Distinguished Member Array Bill MO's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by wjh2657 View Post
    Over 50 yards at a moving target is not pistol range. That is rifle range. IMHO To attempt a 65 yard shot on a moving target iusing a handgun n a public area is irresponsible.
    Me with iron sights and 50 yds is out, (my eyes won't do it) but if you can make hits at 50 yds on the range, Is it better to take the shot on a moving target, hopefully you also have cover available, tying him up in the parking lot with you or letting him go into the IHOP and kill his victims?

    I think it better if you can get him to react to you and you can stand him off, if not kill him, in the parking lot. The cops will soon be there.

    In this situation he had already show he was there to kill people.
    It's gotta be who you are, not a hobby. reinman45

    "Is this persons bad behavior worth me having to kill them over?" Guantes

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    Senior Member Array wjh2657's Avatar
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    And when they arrive they are going to kill two BGs who are engaged in a gunfight in a public parking lot. What he may or may not be going to do will no longer be an issue, just two nuts firing at each other endangering other people. Think it out.

    "this ain't Dodge city and you ain't Bill Hickok." Matthew Quigley in "Quigley Down Under"
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    Distinguished Member Array Bill MO's Avatar
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    That is one thing about most cops, they try to take you in alive before they just shoot you down. So if you follow orders and drop your gun when told to, I see no problem.

    I'm not saying you have to shoot it out with him. If you shoot and hit him or get close he will go down to ground in the parking lot (the way I see it) If he does, as long as he stays put why shoot more? Let him wait for the cops. Hopefully they have long guns too.

    While you wait on the cops would be a good time to call 911 or get someone else to and let them know what is going on. Nice thing about cell phones.

    Sure you may have to answer some questions but how many lives did you save.

    IMHO To attempt a 65 yard shot on a moving target iusing a handgun n a public area is irresponsible.
    By taking that shot you say you may or will miss and that is irresposible in a public area. That being the case then you should not shoot in a public area period, statistics show that more than 50% of rounds fired by cops in shoot outs miss their target.

    Why carry a gun at all you may miss and hit something else. Leave it at home.
    It's gotta be who you are, not a hobby. reinman45

    "Is this persons bad behavior worth me having to kill them over?" Guantes

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bill MO View Post
    That is one thing about most cops, they try to take you in alive before they just shoot you down. So if you follow orders and drop your gun when told to, I see no problem.

    I'm not saying you have to shoot it out with him. If you shoot and hit him or get close he will go down to ground in the parking lot (the way I see it) If he does, as long as he stays put why shoot more? Let him wait for the cops. Hopefully they have long guns too.

    While you wait on the cops would be a good time to call 911 or get someone else to and let them know what is going on. Nice thing about cell phones.

    Sure you may have to answer some questions but how many lives did you save.



    By taking that shot you say you may or will miss and that is irresposible in a public area. That being the case then you should not shoot in a public area period, statistics show that more than 50% of rounds fired by cops in shoot outs miss their target.

    Why carry a gun at all you may miss and hit something else. Leave it at home.
    The dilemma is that you are responsible for the damage and injury or death you cause if you miss. Even if you cause only property damage, you are responsible. Cause an injury to an innocent by stander and your good motives and intentions will likely never get you out of debt.
    If the Union is once severed, the line of separation will grow wider and wider, and the controversies which are now debated and settled in the halls of legislation will then be tried in fields of battle and determined by the sword.
    Andrew Jackson

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    Distinguished Member Array Bill MO's Avatar
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    Yes what ever we do we be something we each will have to decide on our own. We will also have to live with what we decide.

    I see there being times when doing nothing as being worse than doing something. But to each his or her own.
    It's gotta be who you are, not a hobby. reinman45

    "Is this persons bad behavior worth me having to kill them over?" Guantes

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