Shooting In Low Light

This is a discussion on Shooting In Low Light within the Defensive Carry & Tactical Training forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; In a previous post, I talked about the use of the Harries technique and its suitability for use with the big Maglite 2 or 3 ...

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Thread: Shooting In Low Light

  1. #1
    Member Array black bear 84's Avatar
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    Shooting In Low Light

    In a previous post, I talked about the use of the Harries technique and its suitability for use with the big Maglite 2 or 3 D and others similar flashlights.
    See this link:
    http://thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=179342

    I am going to explain how to employ the other useful techniques of using a flashlight with a pistol, especially useful for those flashlights that have a tactical switch.

    As many of the members already have a Surefire of two or three batteries with a tactical switch or a similar one of another brand, going from 60 to 200 lumens, I am going to explain the two most popular techniques. One is the Harries which I have already explained in the previous post in using with my BOREALIS 1050 lumens light.

    Michael Harries invented this position and it is considered one of the first positions ever that coordinates the use of the flashlight using the two hands.
    For using with tactical switch lights (with a switch in the tail), the flashlight is grasped with the left hand around the body and the thumb will activate the switch.
    The back of the hands are pressed together and maintain an isometric tension to help control the recoil of the gun. Your wrists will be crossed and the light will be parallel or close to the muzzle of the gun.

    THE HARRIES TECHNIQUE



    The Roger-Surefire
    Holster maker, ex FBI agent, and competition shooter Bill Rogers teamed up with Surefire to adapt a rubber grommet or washer to the Surefire 6 Z (now available in most combat models of Surefire and copied by others light makers).
    The position is also called the cigar position, as you grasp the body of the flashlight like a cigar, with the index and middle finger. The tail cap is resting on the fleshy part below your thumb and a little pressure back on the rubber ring will activate the light (the tail cap button resting in that part below your thumb will switch the light on).
    That position will let you grasp the hand shooting the pistol with three fingers of the left hand, and it is the only position that let you use a two-handed grip.

    THE ROGERS-SUREFIRE GRIP



    The Chapman technique
    Ray Chapman was the first IPSC world champion. He invented his position for use with the Kel-Lites of the 1970ís (probably the first high quality Police Flashlight) that have a sliding switch on top of the barrel. It is still a great position to use for those that donít want to cross the wrists as in the Harries position when using a big flashlight.
    It is well suited for the Maglites and for the modification of the Maglite like my own BOREALIS 1050 lumens.

    You just grasp the flashlight as you usually do, with your thumb in the switch and your fingers circling the barrel and you bring it up to index your fingernails with the fingernails of the shooting hand.

    THE CHAPMAN GRIP




    And for last a very useful technique called the REVERSE HARRIES that my friend Middlebrook show me recently.




    In my other post I have mentioned the old FBI technique which is to separate the flashlight high and away from you in order to confuse you opponent about your position.
    Another technique that doesnít offer any support to the shooting hand but it can be very useful when using a pistol with lousy sights (original 1911, Luger, etc) is the one I used more than 40 years ago when I started combat shooting.
    It indexes the light on top of my head, letting the light fall on a line from the sights to the target. Even the minuscule back up .380 or the Baby Browning sights gets illuminated using this ridiculous position.

    In closing, I would like to say that in my opinion lights with less than 60 lumens are out of the new low light fighting techniques.
    For my belt light I will prefer to have a minimum of 200 lumens, using the Surefire C-3 and the P-91 lamp as my favorite.
    But if I have to clear a room I prefer a light with more power. My Surefire M-6 with the 500 lumens lamp will do, but I prefer even more lumens to really blind, disorient, and roast my opponent. That is when I use the BOREALIS 1050 lumens light.

    I want to show you some pictures that illustrate the amount of lumens you are putting out when using a Surefire Centurion 2 with the 60 lumen lamp, the Surefire M-6 with the 500 lumens, and the BOREALIS 1050 lumens.

    THE SUREFIRE CENTURION C-2 (65 LUMENS)



    THE SUREFIRE M-6 500 LUMENS)



    THE BOREALIS 1050 LUMENS



    BEST REGARDS
    black bear
    Builder of the BOREALIS 1050 lumens flashlight


    and www.blackbearflashlights.com

    E-Mail admin@blackbearflashlights.com

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  3. #2
    Lead Moderator
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    Nice run down on diffrent techniques and lights. Thanks. Ever use too bright of light in a white walled /small area?
    "In matters of style, swim with the current; in matters of principle, stand like a rock." Thomas Jefferson


    Nemo Me Impune Lacesset

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    Member Array black bear 84's Avatar
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    I tried several times to blind myself with a powerful light by reflecting it on a white wall (even with the 2,000.000 candlepower spotlight) and failed.

    So did my friends when they tried the same stunt.

    I don't think that over 10,000 Surefire M-6 will be in use by Special Forces and SWAT teams if this were thru of all people.

    Maybe some guys are suceptible to get blind by reflections, but I don't know any myself.

    black bear
    Builder of the BOREALIS 1050 lumens flashlight


    and www.blackbearflashlights.com

    E-Mail admin@blackbearflashlights.com

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    I have tried with an M5 and a G2 and it doesn't seem to bother me , but was wondering about the brighter lights.
    "In matters of style, swim with the current; in matters of principle, stand like a rock." Thomas Jefferson


    Nemo Me Impune Lacesset

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    Member Array Jungle Work's Avatar
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    I do not care for flash lights that mount on pistols. I had a friend and fellow officer shot by a perp with a shotgun after turning on the light on his pistol. I was trained to use a flash light in conjunction with a pistol and that is the way I pratice. I prefer a shotgun for dark operations.

    I have several firearms that require two hands to operate that have flash lights mounted on them. But they are a different story than a pistol.

    Excellent Post BB84

    Jungle Work

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    This may be a dumb question, but does getting shot when turning on a flashlight really have anything to do with if it's mounted on the gun or in your hand? I mean, could the BG really tell if it was mounted on a gun or in the persons hand? Even so, would it really matter if that person also had a gun in their hand?




    Quote Originally Posted by Jungle Work
    I do not care for flash lights that mount on pistols. I had a friend and fellow officer shot by a perp with a shotgun after turning on the light on his pistol. I was trained to use a flash light in conjunction with a pistol and that is the way I pratice. I prefer a shotgun for dark operations.

    I have several firearms that require two hands to operate that have flash lights mounted on them. But they are a different story than a pistol.

    Excellent Post BB84

    Jungle Work

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    Senior Member Array gregarat's Avatar
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    Saltysquid,
    I dont think its a dumb question at all.

    I mean, could the BG really tell if it was mounted on a gun or in the persons hand?
    I doubt that the BG would know the difference. But, I think its easier to turn the light on/off from a tail button, or Maglight buton. Than to mess with little swich near the muzzle of the gun, in a high stress situation. If the mounted light is swiched on/off by touching the trigger, it might be a different story.
    You dont want to give the BG a target, in a case like this .
    Even so, would it really matter if that person also had a gun in their hand?
    Shure, if the BS is trying to kill you.

    Thats just my take, and my reason for not using mounted lights. I might try night sights on my G19.

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    Senior Member Array gregarat's Avatar
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    Lightbulb Eureka!!!

    I just got an idea!

    I Have been thinking about geting a G2Z for awhile, just so I can use the "Rogers-Surefire grip". Instead Im going to buy some thick rubberbands and heavy twine, and to add matirial (hotglue?) to the tail swich, so it can be turned on more easly. So my 120 lumen 6P can be a Gheto-G2Z! Shoot, I may buy a 9P to do this with!
    Im shocked I didnt think of this already. Ill post pics of the finished product.
    Last edited by gregarat; August 12th, 2006 at 06:27 PM.

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    I see your point, but I guess I was thinking about the xml light (which I have) that has the swich that can just be flipped by the trigger guard with my left thumb which is pretty much touching the switch anyway. It's very easy and to me, easier than holding a light in that hand and turning it on. Plus I always have a solid grip with both hands in shooting stance. I can understand where it could take more to turn the light on if you had a different type of light. I also havn't trained shooting with crossed wrists and a light in one hand. Thanks for the reply though, I CAN see both sides of it.


    Hehe, I meant make any difference to the bad guy. If he's shooting when the light comes on then it doesn't matter if you have a gun in the same hand or not, you would get shot. Definitely makes a difference to the homeowner (or whatever).


    Quote Originally Posted by gregarat
    Saltysquid,
    I dont think its a dumb question at all.


    I doubt that the BG would know the difference. But, I think its easier to turn the light on/off from a tail button, or Maglight buton. Than to mess with little swich near the muzzle of the gun, in a high stress situation. If the mounted light is swiched on/off by touching the trigger, it might be a different story.
    You dont want to give the BG a target, in a case like this .
    Shure, if the BS is trying to kill you.

    Thats just my take, and my reason for not using mounted lights. I might try night sights on my G19.
    Last edited by saltysquid; August 12th, 2006 at 06:45 PM.

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    Thumbs up Here Is A Link For All

    It is spwenger's Shooting With Flashlights. It's a worthwhile read.

    Tell me what you think of it.

    CLICK HERE TO GO THERE.

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    VIP Member Array Redneck Repairs's Avatar
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    Pretty good basic info for the new folks . a worthwile post imho .
    Make sure you get full value out of today , Do something worthwhile, because what you do today will cost you one day off the rest of your life .
    We only begin to understand folks after we stop and think .

    Criminals are looking for victims, not opponents.

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    Member Array black bear 84's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by gregarat
    I just got an idea!

    I Have been thinking about geting a G2Z for awhile, just so I can use the "Rogers-Surefire grip". Instead Im going to buy some thick rubberbands and heavy twine, and to add matirial (hotglue?) to the tail swich, so it can be turned on more easly. So my 120 lumen 6P can be a Gheto-G2Z! Shoot, I may buy a 9P to do this with!
    Im shocked I didnt think of this already. Ill post pics of the finished product.
    gregarat,
    You will be happier if you get a Centurion C-3 light, it comes with clip and the rubber indexing ring and the square body to get a nice grip, if you planning to use the Rogers-Surefire it is the ideal light to use (with the P-91, 200 lumens lamp)

    Clip it to your belt and you do't need an obstrusive holster, the hard anodizing type III will resist scratches.

    If you don't have the money and need a similar light, get a Streamlight TL-3 (it also have a clip)

    From the clip you can adapt a tiger ring (first popularized by Gabe Suarez). I used a ring from the Surefire M-4 that goes between body and tail-cap.
    That is what I using lately when I am carrying, a Surefire Centurion C-3 and P-91 lamp.

    Here is a picture of the C-3 and the TL-3 with the homemade tiger rings.



    black bear
    Builder of the BOREALIS 1050 lumens flashlight


    and www.blackbearflashlights.com

    E-Mail admin@blackbearflashlights.com

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    Senior Member Array BlueLion's Avatar
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    Can anybody get me some information on the Flash light and Louisville Slugger Technique..
    Listen, Think and React.....Nuff Said.....

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    Senior Member Array gregarat's Avatar
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    Thanks BlackBear,


    Untill I get the funds together for the Centurion C-3 and lamp, Ill try the old Ruberband trick.

    I like the "Tiger rings" .

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    Member Array Blackhawk6's Avatar
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    A word of caution regarding the Tiger ring.

    I have an acquaintence who incurred significant damage to his finger when he went "hands-on" with an individual while using a flashlight equipped with a Tiger ring. Despite surgery and therapy, he still does not have full mobility in his finger.

    I am not saying the Tiger ring is bad, just that there is a potential for injury when using one. Forewarned is forearmed.

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