Point Shooting - Page 2

Point Shooting

This is a discussion on Point Shooting within the Defensive Carry & Tactical Training forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; Originally Posted by tweensy As the top trainer in the World (Kenny Hackathorn) says, "if you can't spit on him, don't try to point shoot ...

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Thread: Point Shooting

  1. #16
    Member Array Cruel Hand Luke's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tweensy View Post
    As the top trainer in the World (Kenny Hackathorn) says, "if you can't spit on him, don't try to point shoot him". 1 handed, below eye level point shooting cna't be relied upon to get chest hits, under lethal stress and without ear protection, in bad light, now, beyond 3-4 ft. The 2 handed, eye level point works well to about 10 ft.
    Mere "match stress" can be proven to make point shooters miss at more than 10 ft, if they are to hit faster than shooters using sighted fire,. That is, if you don't let the point shooters cheat, by getting their bodies all "set" (oriented) on the target. If you knew to do that, why not just have your gun aimed at the bad guy, hmm? :-) Make the shooters pivot to right and left as they draw (or raise the pistol from low ready) and move the target up and down (are you helpless on a hillside or a staircase) and they miss a lot beyond 10 ft, or they are no faster than those using sighted fire.

    If the hits are no faster, then why risk the misses that come with point shooting at ranges beyond 10 ft? Fortunately, it is very, very rare for the civilian defender to have to actually hit a bad guy beyond 10 ft, so point shooting should be most of your practice.

    I suggest that you first practice a lot with airsoft, at 1/2 c per shot, then .22's at 3-4c per shot, before wasting your money on centerfire ammo, and then by locally reloaded stuff, 1000 rds at a time, at the gun show.
    I didn't realize they took a vote and named Hackathorn the worlds best trainer....

    Also you appear to be contradicting your own argument when you say that since point shooting only works at 10 feet or less (which can be argued) and since civilians only shoot people up close that you SHOULD learn to point shoot.....

    first let us define terms. Point shooting is NOT just hip shooting. There is a full spectrum from 2 handed shooting from chin level while looking over the top of the gun at the target all the way down to shooting as the muzzle leaves the holster. In most matches I only look for the sights when the target is either a body shot farther than 7 yards or a head shot farther than 3 yards.

    But I almost NEVER shoot from lower than chest level. It is NOT old school " FBI crouch shooting", but instead something similar to "Point Shoulder" that Applegate references in "Kill or Get Killed". But I do shoot from less than full extension on close (5 yards or less) targets. Think the #3 position of the drawstroke.

    Why? Because I can and there is no reason to look for a picture perfect sight picture if your drawstroke drives the gun to the same place everytime. Now if you have a less than optimal grip and a random drawstroke that causes you to have to look for the sights to make sure the gun is pointed AT the target then yeah...you probably need to stick to using sights. Some people don't have to though.

    I'm a master class IDPA shooter and most targets less than 7 yards do not need a "sight picture " to hit them in the -0 zone.. Read Brian Enos's work on the different types of focus and it will make sense...hopefully. Most MATCHES are shot with the majority of targets farther than 5 yards. Point shooting is best done at distances 5 yards or less for most people. So discussing what works in matches vs what works in close range criminal assault is like comparing driving a tractor on the farm to driving a NASCAR at Talladega. They both are vehicles. They both run on fossil fuel . They both have a steering wheel ....but that is where the similarities end.

    Simply put...if your grip is good ( puts muzzle in line with bones in your arm) and your presentation(drawstroke) drives the gun to where it points the muzzle at the focal point (spot on the target you are looking at) and your trigger press does not jerk the gun off target then you can most likely shoot EXCEEDINGLY well without looking for the sights (NO MATTER WHAT YOUR BODY POSITION IS) out to about 7 to 10 yards. Past that ...You need sights. Inside that, your sights are like training wheels. Look for them until you learn to drive the gun without NEEDING to look for them.
    GentlemanJim likes this.
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  2. #17
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    @ the debate
    "Just blame Sixto"

  3. #18
    Senior Member Array zeppelin03's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SIXTO View Post
    @ the debate
    Yes! this thread to a turn for the worst. Heated topic I guess. Sometimes it seems people on here come just short of dueling.

  4. #19
    Senior Member Array Chad Rogers's Avatar
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    What would you guys say to somebody who asks the question "If you are point shooting and moving, aren't you blading yourself such that you are exposing your side and if a shot hits you in the side it might go through you in the manner that has killed a number of cops wearing body armor over the years who took shots though the side? And isn't that a major reason why many agenices went back to an isocoles/square up to the target stance?"

  5. #20
    Member Array dwyermw's Avatar
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    Tweensy, are you a blog marketing guy for the enhanced/nightsight industry?? Please - here is an open invitation to joina group that carries CCP for professional reasons (coin dealers/jewelry shop operators, etc to come to a local outdoor range (Volusia) and time with us a ranges no longer than 18 feet and measure the results. PM me

  6. #21
    VIP Member Array Eagleks's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tweensy View Post
    With modern luminous sights, the only reason to point shoot is if it's FASTER to get the hits (reliably) than with aimed fire. That's very, very hard to do, beyond 10 ft, if you don't let the point shooters CHEAT, (by getting their bodies "set" in alignment with the target).
    Sorry, but that's BS. I have been point shooting for years, which may have something to do with it. But, I'll draw and quick shoot / unload my gun and hit all into center portion of center of mass at 60 ft all day. I used to do it at 75 ft, but not practicing as much, etc. it's now at about 60 ft. I practice much further. I can do it faster and more accurately with a revolver, than I do with a semi.... but all shots will still be COM. We point shoot turtles @ about 30 yrds constantly to see how close we can get, and we've sure hit a lot of turtles.

    If you develop the habit of not putting your finger on the trigger until you are ready to shoot, and your finger is extended down the side of the gun..... point at what you want to shoot (without looking at sights), and the key part to me is learn not to move the gun off target as you move your finger and pull the trigger. Being consistent in the manner you 'grip' the gun and hold it, is also important. Then practice doing it faster and faster.

    If I couldn't hit anything further than 7-10 ft, I"ld give up. I know what they say about "most" gun fights, but in my experience no one has been within 10 ft. So, I practiced and still do, for what I'm more likely to run into based upon my experience.

    Then, work on using those techniques on moving targets, and mutiple targets.
    Last edited by Eagleks; November 7th, 2011 at 01:46 AM.
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  7. #22
    Distinguished Member Array TSiWRX's Avatar
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    zeppelin, Keith Campbell of Commence FireARMS Training Academy recently completed, himself, a few day's worth of introductory training in point-shooting. He went into it, as he would admit himself, quite a critic and disbeliever, but came out, in his own words, "gulping the Kool-Aid." He liked it so much that he introduced it to our student group last weekend, and I know I loved it, and want to learn more.

    azchevy mentioned the Suarez group back on page 1, and while discussing various local-area schools with another member on OFCC, Suarez's Point Shooting Progressions course came up - where I announced my interest to take the class - but it seems that there is nothing yet listed for Pierpont ( where they've held the Point Shooting classes in the past; the gentleman with whom I'm chatting about this also said that there's currently no Pierpont listing for their Close Range Gunfighting class there, either - and that was one which he had attended just the year prior, but discouragingly saw very few students taking part).

    Maybe we'll finally meet-up with each other there, in '12.

  8. #23
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    A few tangible and intangible factors in regards to point shooting, hopefully you may start seeing a bit of redundancy from some of the post above.

    1.) The First day I was instructed on point shooting, 2 minutes of instruction, mind you. I was hitting 10 out of 10 targets. At 15 yards. I have no doubt in my mind 15 - 20 yards can be reached by the every day joe.

    2.) The Isosceles is the foundation of modern pistol gun-fighting, and is indicative of modern day point shooting. As said above. Muzzle, Grip, Shoulder and Torso asymmetric's will make or break your accuracy.

    3.) Draw Stroke; Having a good pistol grip, body scrape, extension and retention will solve about 80 percent of your inaccuracy problems.

    4.) Point Shooting can be employed in just about every direction accept up/ or prone. And if you beg the question of a stairway, Ask any person who has ever been in a gunfight and they will tell you, Regardless of there expertise, Stairways have always been the long feared, dark, dreary place to be. You can quarterback them all day, but sometimes you have to hope for the Hail-Mary.

    5.) When you get shot at, or have assessed a threat and are responding to "Warranted Fear", Unless you have trained your entire life, you will always go into what some call. The Fear Position, or better known as High Ready. Instead of fighting natural body response, train to incorporate it. Simplicity be design is beautiful.

    6.) Most survivors of close quarter gunfights will tell you. " I don't remember aiming my gun, I don't remember drawing my gun, I just remember putting it in my holster."




    Practice does not make perfect, practice makes consistent, and consistency matters. Because only hits count.
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  9. #24
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    Lightbulb The TRUTH about Point Shooting...

    Point Shooting vs. Sighted Fire

    Personally, I don't understand the debate. But then, I don't look at it as an "either or" proposition. As I said in my book:

    "If you have time, use the sights."

    Anyway, here's a link to some Point Shooting video clips that explains these things and hopefully will answer a lot of questions:

    Tactical Shooting Academy - Videos

    Cheers,

    D.R.

    P.S.- For the record, we don't use a "Body Index". We never have and never will. Stairways are NOT and issue either, and neither is point shooting from prone or any other position. Not for us and what we teach anyway.
    Last edited by DRM; November 9th, 2011 at 02:38 PM. Reason: Added P.S. info..
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  10. #25
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    This whole debate about point shooting vs. sighted shooting I find bizarre. Who's teaching these shooting classes and why can't I pop fast cans with my snubby from 7 yards?

    Giggle!

  11. #26
    VIP Member Array Doghandler's Avatar
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    Sorry.

    Make that from 3 yards for more fun!

  12. #27
    Senior Member Array Matthew Temkin's Avatar
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  13. #28
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    Good info people...from a newbie I say "Thanks!"
    Disarming victims doesn't solve crime.
    ACLDN/USCCA/IDPA/NRA

  14. #29
    Distinguished Member Array Bill MO's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chad Rogers View Post
    What would you guys say to somebody who asks the question "If you are point shooting and moving, aren't you blading yourself such that you are exposing your side and if a shot hits you in the side it might go through you in the manner that has killed a number of cops wearing body armor over the years who took shots though the side? And isn't that a major reason why many agenices went back to an isocoles/square up to the target stance?"
    Chad I just read the last page and I didn't see anyone try to answer your question so here is my take. Unlike LE you (we cc) will not be wearing armor so any hit is a chance of being killed. Blading the body to the BG is giving him the smallest target to shoot at and it is moving making it harder to hit.

    The first thing in a gunfight is not getting hit then making hits on the BG. My findings are that standing in one spot and drawing to the fight is the worst way to fight that there is. Movement gives you a better chance or not taking hits yourself. Then learn to make good hits while moving and shoot him to the ground, that is what wins fights.

    Since LE do wear armor they are trained to keep their armor in the fight so all or most hits are on the armor.
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  15. #30
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    Hickock said it's like pointing your finger. With a thumbs forward grip, it's like pointing your thumb. I call it eye-thumb coordination. From clearing the holster to an isosceles two hand hard sighted stance, it's a continuum of shooting that time and distance dictate. The instinctive lowering of the center of gravity and explosive movement out of harms way should accompany the draw stroke. Conversely, if BG has the drop on you at close range, maybe a smooth reach, as if for the wallet, or a distraction is indicated. There's little doubt that the focus will be riveted to the threat, even while moving, and as soon as you put your thumb on target, it's trigger management time, all the way from retention hip, rising thrust out, to two hands and the sights. Some students who lost accuracy during movement found it helpful to visualize their gun being heavy, or better, to attach an imaginary gyroscope. Confidence and visualizing hits on target are key, no matter what the drill. Like Yogi said, "It's 90% half mental."
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