@ the debate
This is a discussion on Point Shooting within the Defensive Carry & Tactical Training forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; Originally Posted by tweensy As the top trainer in the World (Kenny Hackathorn) says, "if you can't spit on him, don't try to point shoot ...
Also you appear to be contradicting your own argument when you say that since point shooting only works at 10 feet or less (which can be argued) and since civilians only shoot people up close that you SHOULD learn to point shoot.....
first let us define terms. Point shooting is NOT just hip shooting. There is a full spectrum from 2 handed shooting from chin level while looking over the top of the gun at the target all the way down to shooting as the muzzle leaves the holster. In most matches I only look for the sights when the target is either a body shot farther than 7 yards or a head shot farther than 3 yards.
But I almost NEVER shoot from lower than chest level. It is NOT old school " FBI crouch shooting", but instead something similar to "Point Shoulder" that Applegate references in "Kill or Get Killed". But I do shoot from less than full extension on close (5 yards or less) targets. Think the #3 position of the drawstroke.
Why? Because I can and there is no reason to look for a picture perfect sight picture if your drawstroke drives the gun to the same place everytime. Now if you have a less than optimal grip and a random drawstroke that causes you to have to look for the sights to make sure the gun is pointed AT the target then yeah...you probably need to stick to using sights. Some people don't have to though.
I'm a master class IDPA shooter and most targets less than 7 yards do not need a "sight picture " to hit them in the -0 zone.. Read Brian Enos's work on the different types of focus and it will make sense...hopefully. Most MATCHES are shot with the majority of targets farther than 5 yards. Point shooting is best done at distances 5 yards or less for most people. So discussing what works in matches vs what works in close range criminal assault is like comparing driving a tractor on the farm to driving a NASCAR at Talladega. They both are vehicles. They both run on fossil fuel . They both have a steering wheel ....but that is where the similarities end.
Simply put...if your grip is good ( puts muzzle in line with bones in your arm) and your presentation(drawstroke) drives the gun to where it points the muzzle at the focal point (spot on the target you are looking at) and your trigger press does not jerk the gun off target then you can most likely shoot EXCEEDINGLY well without looking for the sights (NO MATTER WHAT YOUR BODY POSITION IS) out to about 7 to 10 yards. Past that ...You need sights. Inside that, your sights are like training wheels. Look for them until you learn to drive the gun without NEEDING to look for them.
Suarez International Tier 1 Staff Instructor
NRA Certified Instructor
IDPA Master class SSP ,ESP,CCP,BUG
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@ the debate
"Just blame Sixto"
I reserve the right to make fun, point and laugh etc.
What would you guys say to somebody who asks the question "If you are point shooting and moving, aren't you blading yourself such that you are exposing your side and if a shot hits you in the side it might go through you in the manner that has killed a number of cops wearing body armor over the years who took shots though the side? And isn't that a major reason why many agenices went back to an isocoles/square up to the target stance?"
Tweensy, are you a blog marketing guy for the enhanced/nightsight industry?? Please - here is an open invitation to joina group that carries CCP for professional reasons (coin dealers/jewelry shop operators, etc to come to a local outdoor range (Volusia) and time with us a ranges no longer than 18 feet and measure the results. PM me
If you develop the habit of not putting your finger on the trigger until you are ready to shoot, and your finger is extended down the side of the gun..... point at what you want to shoot (without looking at sights), and the key part to me is learn not to move the gun off target as you move your finger and pull the trigger. Being consistent in the manner you 'grip' the gun and hold it, is also important. Then practice doing it faster and faster.
If I couldn't hit anything further than 7-10 ft, I"ld give up. I know what they say about "most" gun fights, but in my experience no one has been within 10 ft. So, I practiced and still do, for what I'm more likely to run into based upon my experience.
Then, work on using those techniques on moving targets, and mutiple targets.
Last edited by Eagleks; November 7th, 2011 at 12:46 AM.
I don't make jokes. I just watch the government and report the facts. --- Will Rogers ---
Chief Justice John Roberts : "I don't see how you can read Heller and not take away from it the notion that the Second Amendment...was extremely important to the framers in their view of what liberty meant."
zeppelin, Keith Campbell of Commence FireARMS Training Academy recently completed, himself, a few day's worth of introductory training in point-shooting. He went into it, as he would admit himself, quite a critic and disbeliever, but came out, in his own words, "gulping the Kool-Aid." He liked it so much that he introduced it to our student group last weekend, and I know I loved it, and want to learn more.
azchevy mentioned the Suarez group back on page 1, and while discussing various local-area schools with another member on OFCC, Suarez's Point Shooting Progressions course came up - where I announced my interest to take the class - but it seems that there is nothing yet listed for Pierpont ( where they've held the Point Shooting classes in the past; the gentleman with whom I'm chatting about this also said that there's currently no Pierpont listing for their Close Range Gunfighting class there, either - and that was one which he had attended just the year prior, but discouragingly saw very few students taking part).
Maybe we'll finally meet-up with each other there, in '12.
A few tangible and intangible factors in regards to point shooting, hopefully you may start seeing a bit of redundancy from some of the post above.
1.) The First day I was instructed on point shooting, 2 minutes of instruction, mind you. I was hitting 10 out of 10 targets. At 15 yards. I have no doubt in my mind 15 - 20 yards can be reached by the every day joe.
2.) The Isosceles is the foundation of modern pistol gun-fighting, and is indicative of modern day point shooting. As said above. Muzzle, Grip, Shoulder and Torso asymmetric's will make or break your accuracy.
3.) Draw Stroke; Having a good pistol grip, body scrape, extension and retention will solve about 80 percent of your inaccuracy problems.
4.) Point Shooting can be employed in just about every direction accept up/ or prone. And if you beg the question of a stairway, Ask any person who has ever been in a gunfight and they will tell you, Regardless of there expertise, Stairways have always been the long feared, dark, dreary place to be. You can quarterback them all day, but sometimes you have to hope for the Hail-Mary.
5.) When you get shot at, or have assessed a threat and are responding to "Warranted Fear", Unless you have trained your entire life, you will always go into what some call. The Fear Position, or better known as High Ready. Instead of fighting natural body response, train to incorporate it. Simplicity be design is beautiful.
6.) Most survivors of close quarter gunfights will tell you. " I don't remember aiming my gun, I don't remember drawing my gun, I just remember putting it in my holster."
Practice does not make perfect, practice makes consistent, and consistency matters. Because only hits count.
"I'll see you in Valhalla, Brother." - Thanks to those who serve
Point Shooting vs. Sighted Fire
Personally, I don't understand the debate. But then, I don't look at it as an "either or" proposition. As I said in my book:
"If you have time, use the sights."
Anyway, here's a link to some Point Shooting video clips that explains these things and hopefully will answer a lot of questions:
Tactical Shooting Academy - Videos
P.S.- For the record, we don't use a "Body Index". We never have and never will. Stairways are NOT and issue either, and neither is point shooting from prone or any other position. Not for us and what we teach anyway.
Last edited by DRM; November 9th, 2011 at 01:38 PM. Reason: Added P.S. info..
This whole debate about point shooting vs. sighted shooting I find bizarre. Who's teaching these shooting classes and why can't I pop fast cans with my snubby from 7 yards?
Make that from 3 yards for more fun!
Good info people...from a newbie I say "Thanks!"
Disarming victims doesn't solve crime.
The first thing in a gunfight is not getting hit then making hits on the BG. My findings are that standing in one spot and drawing to the fight is the worst way to fight that there is. Movement gives you a better chance or not taking hits yourself. Then learn to make good hits while moving and shoot him to the ground, that is what wins fights.
Since LE do wear armor they are trained to keep their armor in the fight so all or most hits are on the armor.
It's gotta be who you are, not a hobby. reinman45
"Is this persons bad behavior worth me having to kill them over?" Guantes
Hickock said it's like pointing your finger. With a thumbs forward grip, it's like pointing your thumb. I call it eye-thumb coordination. From clearing the holster to an isosceles two hand hard sighted stance, it's a continuum of shooting that time and distance dictate. The instinctive lowering of the center of gravity and explosive movement out of harms way should accompany the draw stroke. Conversely, if BG has the drop on you at close range, maybe a smooth reach, as if for the wallet, or a distraction is indicated. There's little doubt that the focus will be riveted to the threat, even while moving, and as soon as you put your thumb on target, it's trigger management time, all the way from retention hip, rising thrust out, to two hands and the sights. Some students who lost accuracy during movement found it helpful to visualize their gun being heavy, or better, to attach an imaginary gyroscope. Confidence and visualizing hits on target are key, no matter what the drill. Like Yogi said, "It's 90% half mental."
Liberty, Property, or Death - Jonathan Gardner's powder horn inscription 1776
Tu ne cede malis, sed contra audentior ito.
("Do not give in to evil but proceed ever more boldly against it.")
-Virgil, Aeneid, vi, 95