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Point Shooting

5K views 37 replies 26 participants last post by  DRM 
#1 ·
I figured I would start working on point shooting today at the range. It is public so I am rather limited in what I can do. I would hold it at a ready position then draw up and fire. The most I could probably do is leave the gun on the table then pick up and fire.

Anyhow does anyone have any tips for point shooting? Really starting at nothing and would rather get some good input now before developing bad habits. I have a few courses tentatively planned, but I am on my own until spring. Any pointers or directions would be helpful. Even books or something.

By the way, I was not sure if this is the right spot. Feel free to move this.
 
#3 ·
I do a few things to practice "point shooting". Not sure what you do/know/practice now, so thought it would be best to just describe some of the drills I use-

Dry fire practice -

1. From the high ready position extend arms fully (I use Isosceles stance). Check to see if sights are on target - make corrections. Practice until sights automatically fall on target when you quickly extend from high ready to extension.

2. Trigger management - Now, as you extend, begin to press trigger and continue until arms are completely extended. Hammer should fall at the exact moment you reach full extension. Practice until hammer falls precisely at end of extension.

3. I also practice fast extension with trigger finger along slide, then move to trigger when on target and ready to shoot, or abort shot and retract pistol to high ready.

Range practice for point shooting -

I practice 1-3 above and vary distance to target between 2-7 yards.

Practice riding the reset. For dryfire, rack slide, press and hold trigger, now slowly release until you hear the "click" of trigger resetting. (unless you're shooting S/A handgun) :smile: I always ride the reset when firing, so whenever I shoot I'm practicing this skill. After a short time you will "feel" the trigger reset at you release it after the first shot. This gives you fast follow up shots and helps prevent "slapping" the trigger.

Practice double tap (if range allows it) using reset.

Combine double tap with exercise 2.

Practice triple tap.

Combine triple tap with exercise 2.

Hope something here helps.
 
#5 ·
Agreed,

If you have time to fully extend then you probably have time to acuire your sights (which should be your first choice). If you are in a position that demands point shooting it'll probably be one handed.
 
#6 ·
1st get a couple books:

Bullseyes Don't shoot back by Applegate/Janich
Point shooting progression by Phillips

Then look to take a course or two ( Point Shooting, Force on Force) many companies offer them. Search. Research. Choose.

Then try to find a private area that you can practice outside of a controlled range. Or join a force on force group. Here is one in your area if you choose to take a Suarez International course or two:

Ohio SI Alumni
 
#7 ·
One overlooked concept is by practicing aimed fire, one is conditioning one's self - developing 'muscle memory' if you please - the ability to point shoot.

I find when point shooting, I appear to be using sighted fire, but in reality am looking over the top of the handgun.

Also, the 'one handed' requirement due to need for speed only applies to the first shot or so. Follow that, enough time has passed to use a second hand in the process. For that matter, after one or at most two shots, one has enough time to get the handgun up to eye level and start watching sights. (Don't tell the experts, it'll just confuse them.)

This is not to suggest there are factors which require one of your hands being involved in doing something other than shooting.

One suggestion for practice on a public range that does not allow 'combat shooting'. Use either paper plates or old typing paper as targets. They are appropriate size for the purpose. Shoot only one shot per cycle. As you thought, bring the gun up from the table/bench and fire ONE shot. Then lower the pistol back down and assess. Frankly, it's the first shot that is most important; so fire a string of 'first shots'.
 
#8 ·
I have to point shoot due to vision issues, I really cannot see the sights well enough to use. While I have a Crimson Trace grip, I dry fire with a Laserlyte for practice and I use a BB gun use a BB gun for practice at homein the yard.
 
#9 ·
As the top trainer in the World (Kenny Hackathorn) says, "if you can't spit on him, don't try to point shoot him". 1 handed, below eye level point shooting cna't be relied upon to get chest hits, under lethal stress and without ear protection, in bad light, now, beyond 3-4 ft. The 2 handed, eye level point works well to about 10 ft.
Mere "match stress" can be proven to make point shooters miss at more than 10 ft, if they are to hit faster than shooters using sighted fire,. That is, if you don't let the point shooters cheat, by getting their bodies all "set" (oriented) on the target. If you knew to do that, why not just have your gun aimed at the bad guy, hmm? :) Make the shooters pivot to right and left as they draw (or raise the pistol from low ready) and move the target up and down (are you helpless on a hillside or a staircase) and they miss a lot beyond 10 ft, or they are no faster than those using sighted fire.

If the hits are no faster, then why risk the misses that come with point shooting at ranges beyond 10 ft? Fortunately, it is very, very rare for the civilian defender to have to actually hit a bad guy beyond 10 ft, so point shooting should be most of your practice.

I suggest that you first practice a lot with airsoft, at 1/2 c per shot, then .22's at 3-4c per shot, before wasting your money on centerfire ammo, and then by locally reloaded stuff, 1000 rds at a time, at the gun show.
 
#10 ·
As the top trainer in the World (Kenny Hackathorn) says, "if you can't spit on him, don't try to point shoot him". 1 handed, below eye level point shooting cna't be relied upon to get chest hits, under lethal stress and without ear protection, in bad light, now, beyond 3-4 ft. The 2 handed, eye level point works well to about 10 ft.
If he really said that, I couldn't disagree more.... neither could guys like Jelly Brice, Col. Applegate, William Fairbain, Jim Gregg, Eric Sykes, and Bill Jordan.....
 
#11 ·
we have not and cannot see those old hands PROVE their claims, in live competition, average of 5 tries or more, bud. They weren't timed, we don't know about all the point shooters who MISSED, cause they are dead. So a few guys got lucky a few times, so what? (and or lied about it a lot more times, as Cap Hardy told El Jefe that Ed McGivern did. With modern luminous sights, the only reason to point shoot is if it's FASTER to get the hits (reliably) than with aimed fire. That's very, very hard to do, beyond 10 ft, if you don't let the point shooters CHEAT, (by getting their bodies "set" in alignment with the target).

Your argument falls into the logical error called' appeal to tradition", by the way.
 
#12 ·
Lucky..... yeah lucky. Go do some force on force classes and try your close range two handed aim and get back to us. My arguement is solid and there are many people using these methods SUCCESSFULLY in the field.... just a month or so back someone on another forum successfully used it with a G19 when the perp already had the draw on him in columbia..... the perp is dead and the point shooter is alive and kicking. But what do we know right? Ken Hackathorn said it so it must be true.
 
#15 ·
Tweensy said:
With modern luminous sights, the only reason to point shoot is if it's FASTER to get the hits (reliably) than with aimed fire. That's very, very hard to do, beyond 10 ft, if you don't let the point shooters CHEAT, (by getting their bodies "set" in alignment with the target).
It would seem that you are unfamiliar with the point shooting transitional improvement from body index to nose index.
 
#19 ·
What would you guys say to somebody who asks the question "If you are point shooting and moving, aren't you blading yourself such that you are exposing your side and if a shot hits you in the side it might go through you in the manner that has killed a number of cops wearing body armor over the years who took shots though the side? And isn't that a major reason why many agenices went back to an isocoles/square up to the target stance?"
 
#29 ·
Chad I just read the last page and I didn't see anyone try to answer your question so here is my take. Unlike LE you (we cc) will not be wearing armor so any hit is a chance of being killed. Blading the body to the BG is giving him the smallest target to shoot at and it is moving making it harder to hit.

The first thing in a gunfight is not getting hit then making hits on the BG. My findings are that standing in one spot and drawing to the fight is the worst way to fight that there is. Movement gives you a better chance or not taking hits yourself. Then learn to make good hits while moving and shoot him to the ground, that is what wins fights.

Since LE do wear armor they are trained to keep their armor in the fight so all or most hits are on the armor.
 
#20 ·
Tweensy, are you a blog marketing guy for the enhanced/nightsight industry?? Please - here is an open invitation to joina group that carries CCP for professional reasons (coin dealers/jewelry shop operators, etc to come to a local outdoor range (Volusia) and time with us a ranges no longer than 18 feet and measure the results. PM me
 
#22 ·
zeppelin, Keith Campbell of Commence FireARMS Training Academy recently completed, himself, a few day's worth of introductory training in point-shooting. He went into it, as he would admit himself, quite a critic and disbeliever, but came out, in his own words, "gulping the Kool-Aid." He liked it so much that he introduced it to our student group last weekend, and I know I loved it, and want to learn more.

azchevy mentioned the Suarez group back on page 1, and while discussing various local-area schools with another member on OFCC, Suarez's Point Shooting Progressions course came up - where I announced my interest to take the class - but it seems that there is nothing yet listed for Pierpont ( where they've held the Point Shooting classes in the past; the gentleman with whom I'm chatting about this also said that there's currently no Pierpont listing for their Close Range Gunfighting class there, either :frown: - and that was one which he had attended just the year prior, but discouragingly saw very few students taking part).

Maybe we'll finally meet-up with each other there, in '12. :smile:
 
#23 ·
A few tangible and intangible factors in regards to point shooting, hopefully you may start seeing a bit of redundancy from some of the post above.

1.) The First day I was instructed on point shooting, 2 minutes of instruction, mind you. I was hitting 10 out of 10 targets. At 15 yards. I have no doubt in my mind 15 - 20 yards can be reached by the every day joe.

2.) The Isosceles is the foundation of modern pistol gun-fighting, and is indicative of modern day point shooting. As said above. Muzzle, Grip, Shoulder and Torso asymmetric's will make or break your accuracy.

3.) Draw Stroke; Having a good pistol grip, body scrape, extension and retention will solve about 80 percent of your inaccuracy problems.

4.) Point Shooting can be employed in just about every direction accept up/ or prone. And if you beg the question of a stairway, Ask any person who has ever been in a gunfight and they will tell you, Regardless of there expertise, Stairways have always been the long feared, dark, dreary place to be. You can quarterback them all day, but sometimes you have to hope for the Hail-Mary.

5.) When you get shot at, or have assessed a threat and are responding to "Warranted Fear", Unless you have trained your entire life, you will always go into what some call. The Fear Position, or better known as High Ready. Instead of fighting natural body response, train to incorporate it. Simplicity be design is beautiful.

6.) Most survivors of close quarter gunfights will tell you. " I don't remember aiming my gun, I don't remember drawing my gun, I just remember putting it in my holster."




Practice does not make perfect, practice makes consistent, and consistency matters. Because only hits count.
 
#24 · (Edited)
The TRUTH about Point Shooting...

Point Shooting vs. Sighted Fire

Personally, I don't understand the debate. But then, I don't look at it as an "either or" proposition. As I said in my book:

"If you have time, use the sights." :xpb_cool:

Anyway, here's a link to some Point Shooting video clips that explains these things and hopefully will answer a lot of questions:

Tactical Shooting Academy - Videos

Cheers,:beerchug:

D.R.

P.S.- For the record, we don't use a "Body Index". We never have and never will. Stairways are NOT and issue either, and neither is point shooting from prone or any other position. Not for us and what we teach anyway.
 
#31 ·
Point Shooting vs. Sighted Fire

Personally, I don't understand the debate. But then, I don't look at it as an "either or" proposition.
I have never understood the "either or" mentality myself, but if you read some of these "experts" writings, I come away with the feeling it's all about their egos.
 
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#25 ·
This whole debate about point shooting vs. sighted shooting I find bizarre. Who's teaching these shooting classes and why can't I pop fast cans with my snubby from 7 yards?

Giggle!
 
#30 ·
Hickock said it's like pointing your finger. With a thumbs forward grip, it's like pointing your thumb. I call it eye-thumb coordination. From clearing the holster to an isosceles two hand hard sighted stance, it's a continuum of shooting that time and distance dictate. The instinctive lowering of the center of gravity and explosive movement out of harms way should accompany the draw stroke. Conversely, if BG has the drop on you at close range, maybe a smooth reach, as if for the wallet, or a distraction is indicated. There's little doubt that the focus will be riveted to the threat, even while moving, and as soon as you put your thumb on target, it's trigger management time, all the way from retention hip, rising thrust out, to two hands and the sights. Some students who lost accuracy during movement found it helpful to visualize their gun being heavy, or better, to attach an imaginary gyroscope. Confidence and visualizing hits on target are key, no matter what the drill. Like Yogi said, "It's 90% half mental."
 
#32 ·
I find "BOTH / AND" more useful than "EITHER / OR".

.... as in BOTH (point shooting) AND (sighted shooting).

I infer from FBI gunfight research Force Science News that "instinctive" shooting style is very effective in close range gunfight situations.

Since "guantes" first posted that document I have included close range (3 feet to 5 feet) instinctive point-shooting practice for at least a few mags. during every practice trip to the range (I will be getting real training on this but until I do I want to know what I can do at this range without getting to full extension or acquiring a sight picture).

I have been amazed at the consistent good hits I get.
I encourage you to try it.
 
#33 · (Edited)
I
have never understood the "either or" mentality myself, but if you read some of these "experts" writings, I come away with the feeling it's all about their egos.
Well, I have to admit I have an EGO... :redface:

Some say I’m arrogant, too. :yup: But I think people confuse arrogance with confidence some times. For me, my confidence comes from Mastering the Fist-Fire® Shooting Techniques.

I know that if I execute the technique, the targets will fall...they have to because it's all based upon the Science of Kinesthetic Awareness and Optical Indexing (NOT Body Indexing :rolleyes: ). Case in point:

[video=google;-4488476461205197703]http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-4488476461205197703[/video]
 
#37 ·
I

Well, I have to admit I have an EGO... :redface:

Some say I’m arrogant, too. :yup: But I think people confuse arrogance with confidence some times. For me, my confidence comes from Mastering the Fist-Fire® Shooting Techniques.

I know that if I execute the technique, the targets will fall...they have to because it's all based upon the Science of Kinesthetic Awareness and Optical Indexing (NOT Body Indexing :rolleyes: ). Case in point:
Wife is asleep so I have the audio turned down and couldn't hear any commentary but I didn't see anything in that video that couldn't be duplicated using sighted fire.

This is coming from someone who is also a big fan of point shooting.

I'm just saying...

Jim
 
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