Point Shooting Home Study course

Point Shooting Home Study course

This is a discussion on Point Shooting Home Study course within the Defensive Carry & Tactical Training forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; For those so inclined: THE INTEGRATED CLOSE COMBAT FORUM - Matt Temkin's Point Shooting Lesson Plan...

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  1. #1
    Senior Member Array Matthew Temkin's Avatar
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    Point Shooting Home Study course

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    Very interesting read, thank you very much for sharing.
    Fortes Fortuna Juvat

    Former, USMC 0311, OIF/OEF vet
    NRA Pistol/Rifle/Shotgun/Reloading Instructor, RSO, Ohio CHL Instructor

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    Senior Member Array Matthew Temkin's Avatar
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    Thanks.
    I could not help but notice the point shooting thread.
    Rather than debate--which is rather, pardon the pun, pointless,
    I just post this outline and let others decide for themselves

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    pointless
    Nyce one.

    I don't want to open the link at work but I'll check it out when I get home.
    It is surely true that you can lead a horse to water but you can't make them drink. Nor can you make them grateful for your efforts.

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    Member Array Eaglebeak's Avatar
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    Thanks Matt - this is probably one of the most important and potentially valuable posts that will ever be made on this or any other defensive or combat site for those who are wise enough to explore, understand, and utilize the best information they will ever receive.

    With a few very insignificant differences, this is virtually the same timeless "old school" principles that I was taught many many years ago and have practiced ever since with "defensive/combat" point-shooting (or snap-shooting as some old timers call it) of handguns, rifles and shotguns. You are absolutely correct about many of the concepts being subject to debate, poo-pooed or downright challenged by those who've been taught otherwise or those who feel combat accuracy is directly proportional to the number of expensive sights, lights and other gadgets that are attached to a firearm. But, for those who know better from practical experience, there is no debate because they know it works with extreme effectiveness anytime, all the time, anywhere, and under any lighting or weather conditions.

    I know I've not been a member here long enough to have any established credibility, but I will be the first to argue that any truly efficient point-shooting handgun, rifle, or shotgun is NOT a "tool" that's picked up and used - instead, it must become an integral part of your body itself just as much as another finger, hand, and arm would be.

    Rather than posing a lot of debatable concepts, I'll fall back on letting anyone interested doing a little research on their own with factual history or exploring hundreds of YouTube videos of professional, fast-draw, point-shooting exhibitionists using handguns, rifles, shotguns, or archery to drill moving targets as small as a handfull of coins. You will see absolutely no sights of any kind on the weapons because these experts are simply pointing a part of their body with the same unsighted precise accuracy as a musician who instantly hits the right keys on an instrument while not looking at it (or being totally blind).

    True "old west" gunfighters and "modern" quick-draw experts have no sights on their handgun (with front blade and rear notch filed off smooth and flush) because (1) they don't use the sights to draw and hit a few coins tossed into the air, (2) they draw and fire with only one hand, and (3) sights (especially front blade) only serve to drag against the holster to greatly slow draw-time, smoothness of the draw, and also tend to "steer" the muzzle to one side or the other (and hang up on the holster rim) during the draw.

    Ummmmm - all that is too complicated. How about getting down to picking your nose. Does anyone have a problem with instantly hitting a nostril with the tip of a finger in total darkness even though your finger isn't equipped with a tactical light or expensive target sight?

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    Ummmmm - all that is too complicated. How about getting down to picking your nose. Does anyone have a problem with instantly hitting a nostril with the tip of a finger in total darkness even though your finger isn't equipped with a tactical light or expensive target sight?
    I can do that with no problem. : )
    It is surely true that you can lead a horse to water but you can't make them drink. Nor can you make them grateful for your efforts.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Eaglebeak View Post
    True "old west" gunfighters and "modern" quick-draw experts have no sights on their handgun (with front blade and rear notch filed off smooth and flush) because (1) they don't use the sights to draw and hit a few coins tossed into the air, (2) they draw and fire with only one hand, and (3) sights (especially front blade) only serve to drag against the holster to greatly slow draw-time, smoothness of the draw, and also tend to "steer" the muzzle to one side or the other (and hang up on the holster rim) during the draw.
    Being a long time student of Old West history, particularly Outlaw and Lawman history, can you provide me with more examples of those gunman totally without sights on their weapons as apposed to those that did have sights?
    "The pistol, learn it well, carry it always ..." ~ Jeff Cooper

    "Terrorists: They hated you yesterday, they hate you today, and they will hate you tomorrow. End the cycle of hatred, donít give them a tomorrow."

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    Thanks, bookmarked for later reading...
    The last Blood Moon Tetrad for this millennium starts in April 2014 and ends in September 2015...according to NASA.

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    Senior Member Array wdbailey's Avatar
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    In my personal library I have both Ed Mc Givern's "Fast and Fancy Revolver Shooting" as well as Eugene Cunningham's "Triggernometry"

    McGivern has nothing but unkind and derogatory words for people who go around removing front sights from revolvers and Cunningham doesn't make any reference at all to any of the gunfighters he chronicled as having done this either.

    "Speeds fine, accuracy is final"

    I also have the works of Fairbairn and Sykes as well as Bill Jordan and I'm accomplished at point shooting myself. It's a close range proposition at best though handy to have in the toolbox.

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    New Member Array Speewack's Avatar
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    Ummmmm - all that is too complicated. How about getting down to picking your nose. Does anyone have a problem with instantly hitting a nostril with the tip of a finger in total darkness even though your finger isn't equipped with a tactical light or expensive target sight?
    Wow, I shouldn't read this at work. Here I am in cubeville and I read this part and where does my finger instantly and sub-consciously go? You guessed it!

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    Good info in that link. Thanks

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    Quote Originally Posted by OD* View Post
    Being a long time student of Old West history, particularly Outlaw and Lawman history, can you provide me with more examples of those gunman totally without sights on their weapons as apposed to those that did have sights?
    I'm certainly no authority on "old west" gunfighters (on either side of the law) in any way; and I wouldn't stake my reputation even on most of the "currently accepted" information concerning many of the more famous and infamous gunfighters because the greatest percentage of that has been derived (without unquestionable proof) from passed-down, 3rd-hand, historical "hearsay" accounts, biased biographies, and/or old newspaper articles which are all notorious for being greatly embellished (almost as much as the antique grandfather clock I have in my living that's so old the shadow from the pendulum has worn a hole in the back of the case). In spite of all the "documentation" and a number of "expert historians" re-creating the most famous "Gunfight at the OK Corral" from everything they've compiled, there's still some disagreement about the actual chain of events (even who shot first and at whom). So, while there has been much said and written that remains questionable to this day, one can only imagine what "routine" things were left "unsaid or mentioned" because they were of no importance to anyone at the time.

    Perhaps there's little historical mention of gunslingers (whether notorious or not) removing the front sight from their revolver, there's also probably little mention that most of them also had a gunsmith heat and turn up the hammer spur to make the single-action revolver easier to "fan" a shot with the free hand (at the lighting-fast apex of the "draw and point-shoot from the hip") instead of the much slower process of cocking the hammer during the draw and squeezing the trigger as soon as the muzzle was on point. Since the pistol was fan-fired from the hip during point-shooting, there was no "sighting down the barrel" involved and no need for a front blade sight that served no purpose except to (1) create a lot of drag friction, (2) "steer" the muzzle off center (like a rudder) by the wrinkled creases in the holster's leather (which is common on the sharp inside bend of the holster's front), or (3) drag on the rim of the holster to prevent the muzzle from instantly being jerked horizontal to fire upon clearing the holster.

    I agree that (in their personal opinion) many "experts" frequently chastise anyone who considers removing the front blade sight on a short-range defensive handgun; but if such hadn't been (and/or still is) a frequently common practice, why would a number of "experts" take special effort to advise against it (whether it was historically publicized or not)??

    My information is just as 3rd-hand and "hearsay" based as well; but it comes from a more modern and reliable source which not only claims to have good knowledge of antiquity, but considers removal of the front sight and turning up the hammer spur as a required prerequisite on any revolver before going any farther. A very close friend of mine has been a member of the Kansas Quick-Draw Association for over 20 years and won many major titles in the World Quick-Draw Association's annual shootout. Granted, they only use hard wax "bullets" to hit and burst a balloon target, but the concept is exactly the same "point-shooting" technique that Matt's training program employs.

    Personally, I wouldn't remove the front sight on any of my defensive handguns simply because I also enjoy plinking and target shooting with them as well. My apologies for getting off the thread's original premise by inducing debate over removal of a front sight; but mention was only made of that because learning the true "point-shooting" technique that's deadly accurate at the fastest speed (shooting either from the hip, chest, or raised) does not involve the sights on the weapon or even sighting down the barrel. One either understands the true self-defense merits of the concept or will choose the slower, but more popularly taught, sighting method. As Matt mentioned, it's all simply a matter of personal choice and preference that's not subject to debate.

  13. #13
    Senior Member Array Matthew Temkin's Avatar
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    Point shooting works wheither or not your handgun has sights.
    All of my pistols have sights.
    Saying that, I once taught an 8 hour police class with a borrowed Glock 17 which had no sights whatsoever and never shot better in my life.
    Remember, it is time, distance and circumstances which will dictate your response.

  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eaglebeak View Post
    Perhaps there's little historical mention of gunslingers (whether notorious or not) removing the front sight from their revolver, there's also probably little mention that most of them also had a gunsmith heat and turn up the hammer spur to make the single-action revolver easier to "fan" a shot with the free hand (at the lighting-fast apex of the "draw and point-shoot from the hip") instead of the much slower process of cocking the hammer during the draw and squeezing the trigger as soon as the muzzle was on point. .
    Interesting take on “most of them also had a gunsmith heat and turn up the hammer spur to make the single-action revolver easier to "fan" a shot with the free hand”. I’ve never seen any pictures of this having been done on any of the known authenticated pistols of known gunmen (besides Hollywood gunmen). In all the biographies and autobiographies I have, to a man, they all called “fanning” a stunt. In Colt’s archives there are eight letters from Bat Masterson, in the letter dated Jan. 18th. 1882 he specifically requested “I would like for you to make the sight a little higher and thicker than the ordinary sights on pistols..... From his letter dated March 18th, 1885; “Make it very easy on the trigger and make the sight rather high and thick.... (page 52, A STUDY OF THE COLT SINGLE ACTION ARMY REVOLVER, by: Graham, Kopec & Moore - ISBN: 0-9615236-1-1 ) There are any number of “famous” Colt SAAs in the book, none have had there front sight “filed” off, or their hammers “heated.” G.A. (“Bud”) Frazer also had a “taller” than standard sight installed on his Model P when he was going to go up against “Deacon” Jim Miller. Luke Short had a gold bead intsalled on one of his (what's old is new again )

    You mentioned the shootout in Tombstone, the only known and authenticated weapons used in that fight are Frank McLaury’ s, Colt #52196 and Billy Clanton’s #46338 (information written down by, coroner Dr.Harry M. Matthews) both are stock factory Model P “Frontier Six-Shooters.”

    One of the most notorious “gunmen” known is John Wesley Hardin, a number of his weapons still exist, none of his known weapons have the the “Hollywood” or "Quick-Draw Association's" modifications done to them.





    If you have any documentation of Old West gunfighter's having these "mods" done to their weapons, I would be very interested in seeing it.
    Caertaker likes this.
    "The pistol, learn it well, carry it always ..." ~ Jeff Cooper

    "Terrorists: They hated you yesterday, they hate you today, and they will hate you tomorrow. End the cycle of hatred, donít give them a tomorrow."

  15. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by wdbailey View Post

    In my personal library I have both Ed Mc Givern's "Fast and Fancy Revolver Shooting" as well as Eugene Cunningham's "Triggernometry"

    McGivern has nothing but unkind and derogatory words for people who go around removing front sights from revolvers and Cunningham doesn't make any reference at all to any of the gunfighters he chronicled as having done this either.
    "Speeds fine, accuracy is final"

    I also have the works of Fairbairn and Sykes as well as Bill Jordan and I'm accomplished at point shooting myself. It's a close range proposition at best though handy to have in the toolbox.
    In all my years of being a "Gunfigher" history buff, I haven't as of yet seen this on any of the authenticated weapons used by the known "Gunfighters" (those living past their first )
    "The pistol, learn it well, carry it always ..." ~ Jeff Cooper

    "Terrorists: They hated you yesterday, they hate you today, and they will hate you tomorrow. End the cycle of hatred, donít give them a tomorrow."

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