Evolution of Combat Pistol Technique

[Harryball]

Interesting. I might have to give it a try. Thanks for sharing DRM.

[DefensiveCarry.com]

[Harryball]

Very interesting, thank you for the history lesson. That gives me somethings to experiment with when I go to the range.

A question though, seeing as I am a relatively young pup when it comes to age. I was always under the impression that the Weaver stance was more along the lines of the "cup and saucer" technique when it comes to how the hands are positioned. And that was done with the theory that the non-dominant are was supposed to off a bit more flesh in front of the torso, since the bladed stance exposed the side. And then the modified weaver changed both the arm positions, and hold on the gun. So where does the "cup and saucer" fit into the picture here? No disrespect intended, you have been competitively shooting since before I was born, I am just curious.

Hey Buckeye, read thru this it might help with the cup and saucer grip and how it fits. Hope this helps...

Grip techniques used with the M9 Pistol (ArmyStudyGuide.com)

[TSiWRX]

Being a newcomer to "the gun world," while I've been taught the current techniques by my instructors, I never knew the history/evolution behind them.

Thank you so much, DRM, for sharing that!

This really makes me want to take some classes from you - I hope that in the next year or so, I can get out to "regional" locations.

Until then, it looks like I know where my next set of DVD purchases will be from!

[DRM]

I'm having trouble understanding how the off hand manages recoil, other then for controlling muzzle rise. With no part of the off hand actually behind the gun, does this technique rely on the off hand tightly gripping the strong hand to direct recoil into the off hand and arm? Or am I misunderstanding something?

By Recoil Management I mean Muzzle Control. I really RELAX my Strong Hand. The Off Hand does most of the the work. On lunch break right now teaching a class, I'll post some more info later. But it's ALL in the Grip and ROLL OVER WRIST LOCK...

[DRM]

Well,I'm not ashamed to say,If I see an instructor's method,and like it,I will use it in a class,so i'm stealing parts of this,Thanks DRM

Well, thanks for being so honest! People have been STEALING from me for years, just ask Paul Gomez. But I look at it this way:

It’s not “STEALING” if you tell them where you “FOUND” the Pearls of Wisdom. Just give credit where credit is due. That's what I do.

I remember back in 2000 I was training Adam & Rory Singer (Forrest Griffin’s coaches at the time). You may know Forrest as the 1st Ultimate Fighter Winner. This photo shows Adam’s better side as he coaches Forrest to the UFC Victory:

adamsinger.jpg
Photo courtesy The HardCore Gym/American Top Team of Georgia

Adam knew how I was being attacked on the Internet and spoke up in class. He said,

“This is how it’s going to go down, D.R.” and stood up and wrote this on my white board in the middle of the class:

“The acronym is I.R.A.C.S. which stands for: Insult, Ridicule, Attack, Copy, Steal. Because that’s what they did to the Gracies.”

I'm having trouble understanding how the off hand manages recoil, other then for controlling muzzle rise. With no part of the off hand actually behind the gun, does this technique rely on the off hand tightly gripping the strong hand to direct recoil into the off hand and arm? Or am I misunderstanding something?

I filmed some stuff in class today that will SHOW the answer to this question. It will BLOW YOUR MIND. I’ll put it up shortly…

[DRM]

I'm having trouble understanding how the off hand manages recoil, other then for controlling muzzle rise. With no part of the off hand actually behind the gun, does this technique rely on the off hand tightly gripping the strong hand to direct recoil into the off hand and arm? Or am I misunderstanding something?

It’s a common misconception that the auto-pistol recoils rearward using the FIST-FIRE two hand hold:

KA GLOCK GRIP.jpg

It’s also a misconception that it takes great grip strength to manage recoil using my method. I will explain why in a moment...

In FIST-FIRE (and Fist-Fire ONLY) it’s ALL in the WRIST...Specifically, the FULLY-ROLLED-OVER-WRIST-LOCK…

If you are a RIGHT handed person, this is the proper way to apply the OFF HAND Wrist-Lock to the gun itself (Note: STRONG HAND not shown, you'll see why in the video):

OFF AND WRIST LOCK 1.jpg

Note: All Photos were taken from the FIST-FIRE Book published back in 2002.

Now check this out, it’s gonna BLOW YOUR MIND!!

DISCLAIMER: This will ONLY work with the PROPER, FIST-FIRE “Fully Rolled Over Wrist Lock”. DO NOT TRY THIS AT HOME. This Video is meant for information purpose ONLY.



The reason why the gun behaves like this is because of the physics involved. Here's an illustration:

RECOIL DWG 2.jpg

The above illustration was taken from the FIST-FIRE Book Copyright © 2002 Tactical Shooting Academy.

BOTTOM LINE: I simply created a fulcrum point with STRONG HAND thumb. The gun initially wanted to move rearward. But because of the pivot point created by the thumb, it then wanted to take the path of least resistance, roll up and over it. But when the lower grip frame met the Roll-Over-Wrist-Lock, it hit a wall.


Here's one of my 8 yr. Old Students shooting a .40 SVI Pistol with empty case still in the air:

8 YR OLD.JPG

Notice his great FIST-FIRE form: Left arm higher than the right, left elbow gently locked, wrist fully rolled over and locked.

[DRM]

It's hard to believe I put this out well over a decade ago and it's just now catching on:


[COLOR="#FF0000"]
DISCLAIMER WARNING: We DO NOT offer revolver training (never have, never will) nor do we recommend using revolvers with the FIST-FIRE Grip. Gases escaping from the cylinder gap can burn skin and may cause serious injury to the off hand thumb.

[GentlemanJim]

Great video and it brings another point to mind. Don't be dogmatic if you want to achieve your potential, and don't patronize dogmatic instructors. Beyond the actual evolution of the techniques, this points out the importance of things like timing and how to modify a technique on the fly to fit a particular situation or application. It also reveals there isn't one approach that will necessarily work for everyone, or even one technique that will necessarily work for anyone over the course of their lifetime.

In spite of our similarities, we are each an experiment of one. The great instructors realize this. The good instructors, not so much.

Jim

Edit: P.S. Thanks for posting that. I've been around a while and I knew most of (but not all of) that. But that was the first time I've ever seen someone pull it all together. Really enjoyed the presentation. Bravo!

[DRM]

Thanks Guys...

[Harryball]

Just a question DRM, how does your grip work with the mouse guns out there...Does the thumb on the reaction hand get near the end of the barrel? With so many folks using small guns, how does you technique fit for them? Thanks..

[DRM]

Just a question DRM, how does your grip work with the mouse guns out there...Does the thumb on the reaction hand get near the end of the barrel? With so many folks using small guns, how does you technique fit for them? Thanks..

VERY Good Question, Harry, really, thanks for asking…

Seriously, I don’t recommend using my grip with anything smaller than a G19. The two handed grip is for bigger and more powerful guns.

The "get out from under the pile guns" are better suited for one handed shooting, or a double thumb lock down if the size of the gun allows it.

Your thoughts???

DISCLAIMER WARNING: We DO NOT offer revolver training (never have, never will) nor do we recommend using revolvers with the FIST-FIRE Grip. Gases escaping from the cylinder gap can burn skin and may cause serious injury to the off hand thumb

[Harryball]

VERY Good Question, Harry, really, thanks for asking…

Seriously, I don’t recommend using my grip with anything smaller than a G19. The two handed grip is for bigger and more powerful guns.

The "get out from under the pile guns" are better suited for one handed shooting, or a double thumb lock down if the size of the gun allows it.

Your thoughts???

DISCLAIMER WARNING: We DO NOT offer revolver training, never have, never will, nor do we recommend using revolvers with the FIST-FIRE Grip. Gases escaping from the cylinder gap can burn, cut and cause serious injury to the off hand thumb.

Thanks, I was wondering about consistency in training...I appreciate your response...

[TSiWRX]

Like DRM pointed out, the other problem would be with revolvers.

I'm lucky - I have standard-sized mitts: I don't need to dump that thumb, even with my Kahr PM9, which is as small as I really want to go. But I constantly have to remind myself of the thumb when I'm practicing, two-handed, with my snub. Luckily for me, the snub is to be shot weak-hand only, so I really only do the two-handed thing for fun.

[RKM]

Watching the Magpul Handgun vids on youtube, it looks like Travis Haley teaches the same concept.

I've never shot this way. Always found it slightly strange to have my no dominate arm straighter than my dominate arm. As far as the grip, I like. I'll have to give it a try next time at the range.

[Harryball]

Watching the Magpul Handgun vids on youtube, it looks like Travis Haley teaches the same concept.

I've never shot this way. Always found it slightly strange to have my no dominate arm straighter than my dominate arm. As far as the grip, I like. I'll have to give it a try next time at the range.

Travis and Chris teach a similar concept. There reaction hand isnt as far forward on the gun. Other than that, its pretty close.