Evolution of Combat Pistol Technique

This is a discussion on Evolution of Combat Pistol Technique within the Defensive Carry & Tactical Training forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; It's a very nice technique - Haley/Costa/Magpul cites the "bore over" as being the reason why you want to get that hand up there, and ...

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Thread: Evolution of Combat Pistol Technique

  1. #31
    Distinguished Member Array TSiWRX's Avatar
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    It's a very nice technique - Haley/Costa/Magpul cites the "bore over" as being the reason why you want to get that hand up there, and while I personally do believe that's important, I subscribe more to the "lock" at the bottom of the grip, per DRM's description.

    For me, the difference is most apparent during a rapid-fire string, and the longer the string gets, the more it makes itself seen.

    My XDm9 3.8 Compact, my carry gun, is my favorite in terms of demonstrating the usefulness of that "lock."

    With the full-size 19-round magazine in-place (particularly with the proper XDm-"XTension" sleeve attached), the "lock" at bottom of the grip really manifests as I then switch to the short, flush-to-abbreviated-grip-frame 13-round magazine (with or without the Pearce Grip Extension in-place, it doesn't matter, as all that extension allows for is for the firing hand's pinky to come to a full grip - it does not extend sufficiently below the pinky/palm to offer proper counter-leverage via the "lock" described by DRM): controlling rapid-fire strings without the "lock" is noticeably more difficult, and puts more emphasis on physical grip strength.
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  3. #32
    Senior Member Array bklynboy's Avatar
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    Very interesting thread. A few years ago I adopted a much firmer weak hand grip to try to get better trigger control. I found that when I gripped too firmly with my strong hand, the tension in my hand made it more difficult for me to gently flex my trigger finger independently. When I switched to relying on my weak hand for most of the grip strength, I found that I got more trigger control, and ended up with the added benefit of improved recoil control
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  4. #33
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    Thumbs up

    controlling rapid-fire strings without the "lock" is noticeably more difficult, and puts more emphasis on physical grip strength.
    You got it...
    "...with liberty and justice for all..."
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  5. #34
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    Thumbs up

    When I switched to relying on my weak hand for most of the grip strength, I found that I got more trigger control, and ended up with the added benefit of improved recoil control.
    Right!

    The whole idea is to relax and shoot. Because of my Lyme Disease problems, I just couldn't muscle the gun anymore. So, I decided to use "Technique & Leverage" instead.

    Unlike the Mod-Iso (which requires substantial squeezing and gripping) we don’t squeeze the grip hard with the Off Hand; We “Hook it" with the wrist lock. Here's an example, try this test:

    Pinky Push.jpg
    Photo courtesy the FIST-FIREģ Book © 2002 Tactical Shooting Academy

    Roll your off hand wrist fully over until the wrist bones stop it into a Fully Rolled Over Wrist Lock. Cup your off hand (DON’T SQUEEZE IT, CUP IT).

    Pull your left shoulder back, then push forward on the Pinky and you’ll feel the resistance.

    Now feel your off hand forearm muscles and see how relaxed they are.

    On the DVD's I go into a lot more detail...
    "...with liberty and justice for all..."
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  6. #35
    Ex Member Array Harryball's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DRM View Post
    (DONíT SQUEEZE IT, CUP IT).

  7. #36
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    Sorry, Harry, I didn't mean to wake you up...
    Last edited by DRM; December 6th, 2011 at 05:11 PM.
    "...with liberty and justice for all..."
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  8. #37
    Ex Member Array Harryball's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DRM View Post
    Sorry, Harry, didn't me to wake you up...
    Couldnt Help myself LMAO.....

  9. #38
    Member Array ISR MATRIX's Avatar
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    Awesome video D.R.

    Good to see you here.

    Fletch
    www.isrmatrix.org

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  10. #39
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    Lightbulb Cup & Saucer Hold

    Quote Originally Posted by buckeye .45 View Post
    I was always under the impression that the Weaver stance was more along the lines of the "cup and saucer" technique when it comes to how the hands are positioned...
    I think the "cup and saucer" was a rollover from the guys who shot bullseye with rifles in the standing position (that and all the pictures of gun writers in the rags who were never top shooters. ).

    Here's a picture taken from the 1981 IPSC Nationals where the "Top 10" shooters got to shoot "Man against Man" in the Shoot Off finals. Not a one of them ever used the "cup and saucer" hold (I know I was there 30 years ago. I'm the guy in the cowboy hat! ):

    1981nats.jpg

    So where does the "cup and saucer" fit into the picture here?
    It really doesn't. It's not even in the equation of Evolution of Technique.

    This is why I did the video. I felt it was important to record a bit of pistol shooting history.
    "...with liberty and justice for all..."
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    D.R. Middlebrooks - Pro Shooting Coach & Custom Gunsmith
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  11. #40
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    Lightbulb FIST-FIRE vs. MOD ISO

    I get lots of emails and pm’s asking me the question:

    “How does your grip differ from the MOD ISO?”

    Here’s a photo showing the inventor of the MOD ISO Rob Leatham (arguably the BEST 1911 Shooter of ALL time) at full extension:

    ROB LEATHAM LEFT SIDE VIEW.jpg

    Note how Rob’s elbows are at the same level and look at the second row of knuckles on his hand. Notice how they line up with the centerline of the trigger guard?

    Now here’s my daughter C.J. demonstrating my method of full extension which I use for Surgical Speed Shooting. Notice how her hands are wrapped entirely around the front of the gun. Also note how here left shoulder, arm and elbow is higher than her right:

    CJ FULL EXTENSION.jpg

    Photo courtesy FIST-FIRE Book Copyright © 2002 Tactical Shooting Academy
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  12. #41
    Distinguished Member Array claude clay's Avatar
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    interesting post

    accidents, arthritis can lead to changes in how we do things.

    find what works best and keep moving foward
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  13. #42
    Senior Member Array threefeathers's Avatar
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    I squeeze hard and like Mas's crush grip concept. My combat experience is that I reflexively tighten up. The only person I've ever shot with a hand gun I blew his little fanny out of the the back of a deuce and a half I was skying out in. I hit him with all 7 rounds from 4 feet and I am certain I had checkered marks on my palm from the cheapo plastic grips the army issued for a while. Each of us has different physical abilities and we must adopt and perfect what we can do.
    As a wrestling coach I couldn't have everyone do a high croch and fireman's rip by everyone. Each had to learn so they could teach but I didn't expect perfection by all. I did expect to have winning seasons and each wrestler to be aggressive and have certain techniques they could do better than others.
    The army still teaches the cup and saucer, I found out that some of our wounded soldiers have to use and modify this terrible grip, but it can be useful.

  14. #43
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    Lightbulb Weaver

    Classic shooting styles in review:

    The Weaver, Cooper version, aka The Modern Technique of the Pistol (Photo courtesy FIST-FIRE Book © 2002):

    TC in WEAVER.jpg
    "...with liberty and justice for all..."
    (Must be 18. Void where prohibited. Some restrictions may apply. Not available in all states). - D. Stanhope

    D.R. Middlebrooks - Pro Shooting Coach & Custom Gunsmith
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  15. #44
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    Lightbulb Chapman

    Classic shooting styles in review:

    The Chapman Stance: I had the privilege to shoot with Ray Chapman a few times. But this ain't him, it's Kevin Apland, one of the guys in my camp (Photo courtesy FIST-FIRE Book © 2002):

    CHAPMAN STANCE.jpg
    "...with liberty and justice for all..."
    (Must be 18. Void where prohibited. Some restrictions may apply. Not available in all states). - D. Stanhope

    D.R. Middlebrooks - Pro Shooting Coach & Custom Gunsmith
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    www.TacticalShooting.com

  16. #45
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    Lightbulb Mod Iso

    Classic shooting styles in review:

    The Mod-Iso. Robbie Leatham made this famous. I was honored to shoot with him as well

    Photo courtesy FIST-FIRE Book © 2002:

    MOD ISO STANCE.jpg
    "...with liberty and justice for all..."
    (Must be 18. Void where prohibited. Some restrictions may apply. Not available in all states). - D. Stanhope

    D.R. Middlebrooks - Pro Shooting Coach & Custom Gunsmith
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    www.TacticalShooting.com

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