Proper Grip & Recoil Managment

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Thread: Proper Grip & Recoil Managment

  1. #46
    Member Array Erick46590's Avatar
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    definitely trying this next trip.
    Matthew 10:28 "And do not fear those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather fear him who can destroy both soul and body in hell." ✞

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  3. #47
    Distinguished Member Array claude clay's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Olduser View Post
    DR asked me if I would post this for the benefit of those who have hand injuries.

    Some time ago my L hand was injured in a table saw accident. Using this pic imagine the ring and middle finger somewhat extended and not having any grip strength or feeling past the first knuckle. The forefinger and little finger can wrap as pictured. The circled grip area is where the recoil and control is managed and compensates (with practice) for the lack of all fingers wrapping tightly. I'm also having to train my L thumb to extend along the slide. (Another consequence of the injury.)



    This grip provides me greater control and recoil management than any other "solutions" I've tried. I hope I've explained this so that it makes sense to you and that someone might benefit from it.
    lose of hand strength may be compensated by pushing the gun away from you with the strong hand; pretend your pushing a 10 pound sack of flour away from you on a table top,

    and pulling back to you with the weak hand like it was a 7 pound sack on the tabletop.
    stand at a slight angle to the target; chest pointed at 1:30, L foot at same and R foot at 2:30.
    you shoulder act to complete the triangle.

    thus the push/pull locks the gun in your hands and adds to the grip strength without using finger strength.
    ...swivel head to place dominant eye in the sight line.

    good luck.
    Be aware, be deliberate in your actions and be accurate.
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    Why do those elected to positions of power than work so hard
    to deny those same opportunities to the same people who empowered them

  4. #48
    Member Array Olduser's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by claude clay View Post
    lose of hand strength may be compensated by pushing the gun away from you with the strong hand; pretend your pushing a 10 pound sack of flour away from you on a table top,

    and pulling back to you with the weak hand like it was a 7 pound sack on the tabletop.
    stand at a slight angle to the target; chest pointed at 1:30, L foot at same and R foot at 2:30.
    you shoulder act to complete the triangle.

    thus the push/pull locks the gun in your hands and adds to the grip strength without using finger strength.
    ...swivel head to place dominant eye in the sight line.

    good luck.
    Thanks for the suggestion Claude. I think I might be doing something very similar without recognizing it regarding the "push/pull" you talk about. I've been using equal parts of resistance between my hands rather than a more dominant push with my strong hand. I know I've over compensated with my strong hand finger grip. If I understand you, you're saying to transfer the "load" to the hands and have the finger grip complement this??

    The body orientation is a bit different than my stance now. My head placement, and I hesitate to say this, always seems to adjust for my dominant eye. Obviously I will need to practice this at the range to understand the mechanics.

    As an aside I do practice quit a bit with one handed shooting. One handed with my L hand just isn't an option unless its poked in someone's belly...
    "The only thing I'm an expert about is my experience."

  5. #49
    Distinguished Member Array claude clay's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Olduser View Post
    Thanks for the suggestion Claude. I think I might be doing something very similar without recognizing it regarding the "push/pull" you talk about. I've been using equal parts of resistance between my hands rather than a more dominant push with my strong hand. I know I've over compensated with my strong hand finger grip. If I understand you, you're saying to transfer the "load" to the hands and have the finger grip complement this??

    The body orientation is a bit different than my stance now. My head placement, and I hesitate to say this, always seems to adjust for my dominant eye. Obviously I will need to practice this at the range to understand the mechanics.

    As an aside I do practice quit a bit with one handed shooting. One handed with my L hand just isn't an option unless its poked in someone's belly...
    pretty much. and you push a little harder to 1-orient your all to the point you want the bullet to go----push in that direction and
    2--pushing a little harder picks up some of the re-coil with out any extra effort on your part.
    and standing a little off straight makes your dominant arm longer...almost straight, so now let the recoil go to your bent elbows and they act like a piston.
    than when you re-extend your arms you are pointing at the target again. those who let the gun go nose high allow their wrists to break and lose the target.

    push/pull helps to lock the gun in your hands with out fatiguing your grip. but do maintain grip with the 3 lower fingers of the trigger hand to keep the shots fron going low & left.

    good luck.
    Be aware, be deliberate in your actions and be accurate.
    -------------------
    Why do those elected to positions of power than work so hard
    to deny those same opportunities to the same people who empowered them

  6. #50
    Member Array Olduser's Avatar
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    Thank you Claude. I'll let you know about my experience.
    "The only thing I'm an expert about is my experience."

  7. #51
    RKM
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    I've made this grip second nature. I've been using it for awhile and it really does help with controlling recoil and making quick follow up shots. I noticed a huge improvement when shooting 9mm. My only problem is sometimes the fat palm section of my thumb will rest on the slide stop preventing the last round to lock the slide on my USP. With slight adjustment, I can avoid it.

  8. #52
    VIP Member Array First Sgt's Avatar
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    I'm always willing to observe a technique that I may not be utilizing, try the technique, and by keeping an open mind, and giving an honest effort, determine what works best for myself. I believe, that in MOST self defense situations, where a weapon might be utilized, stance will very seldom enter into the equation of performance, unless it is a possible longer distance, hostage standoff situation where you have the time to present your weapon, obtain sight picture, and prepare to engage while negotiating verbally. I personally was taught, and use, the grip illustrated in THIS You Tube video: Proper Grip for Auto-Pistols - YouTube ... I train for move and shoot versus stance and shoot... sooooooooooo...with that being said, DRM, how effective is your grip when not being in a stationary position? Regardless of your answer, I plan to try your grip... Thanks for presenting the video, illustrations, and narrative.
    Skygod likes this.
    Sometimes in life you have to stand your ground. It's a hard lesson to learn and even most adults don't get it, but in the end only I can be responsible for my life. If faced with any type of adversity, only I can overcome it. Waiting for someone else to take responsibility is a long fruitless wait.

  9. #53
    Senior Member Array TSiWRX's Avatar
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    ^ The grip is the grip, and it works in-conjunction with the rest of the upper-body presentation. Like DRM said in his Fist/Fire DVD, once properly indexed, you should be able to shoot from retention/guard all the way out to full-lock - using your personal balance-of-speed-versus-accuracy template to determine how much lock/sight-picture you need to have, for any particular engagement.

    For me, lower-body "stance" is, like you said, First Sgt, an "ideal." Given time and opportunity, I will go to my "fighting stance," which is something not only allows me my "natural point-of-aim," but also gives me the most reflexive capabilities (be it fight or flight - and I think that this came from when I was young and trained in the martial arts: no, I'm not bragging, I'm kinda like Kung Fu Panda, now - what I'm saying is just that there's so much muscle memory there, that it's probably going to take me the rest of my life to break, even if I can break it, and that this is evident by the fact that when I get into a stressed situation, my lower body automatically drops into this stance).

    But that's the ideal.

    At Chris Cerino's last shooting clinic, my first lesson with him, he took one look at me and knew that was the stance that I'd default to. Being that the clinic was supposed to enhance our skills, he demanded that I shoot for the rest of the night with my feet completely together. This robbed me of my lower-body stability, but it showed me how important my upper body control really was. I didn't drop a single shot on the cadence drills (which was the only time in this particular clinic, a beginner-level clinic, that we really fired faster strings), and a lot of that had to do with this "Roll-Over Wrist-Lock" - "power of the pinky," it most certainly definitely is!!!

    What discovered at that particular clinic is that, for me, I do tend to go to the "OMG I'm gonna die" stress-response of "squeezing the heck out of the grip of the pistol" - aka "100/100" - grip, when I'm faced with stress. This automaticity is probably because I do not compete: I train exclusively for defensive-style shooting. Now, the problem with this is that this death-grip has become so ingrained within me that when I go to the range, solo, to practice the fundamentals of pistol marksmanship, I see it manifest its major symptom - that my arms and hands get fatigued and are shaking - within the first 30 minutes of my range session. Not exactly conducive to getting surgical accuracy.

    This isn't to say that I can't get "combat effective" shots like this. I can go all day, multiple days, like this, and do decently well enough.

    But the problem is that after an initial peak in the ability to gain surgical effectiveness, I quickly lose that due to fatigue.

    What I've learned under the stress of training is that in the translation of time/distance - that balance-of-speed-versus-accuracy - if I'm looking for that surgical shot, then my mind and body will re-adjust because I've been given the luxury of time, so that I can refine my details: sight picture/alignment, breathing, locking out those elbows and even slightly altering my grip pressure and tuning-in to other minute details, so that I can make that critical shot that's more exacting than the 6-inch plate at 7-yards that I have to deliver from a draw, concealed, in less than a second and a half.

    This grip helps me index - it helps me shoot from retention/guard all the way out to full-lock and that pretty and perfect sight-alignment/picture...basically any time I've got two hands on the pistol. This grip helps me control recoil even if I'm hammering rounds downrange as fast as I can pull the trigger, and insures that my grouping stays on-target and not sail off downrange. This grip helps me maintain rigorous control of the pistol, be it at bad-breath distance or when I'm moving.
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  10. #54
    Senior Member Array Skygod's Avatar
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    Nothing new here. This grip has been used for years by LEA and Military worldwide.

    If your using any other grip, your about 20 years behind the learning curve.
    Perhaps your sole purpose in life is to serve as a warning to others.

  11. #55
    Senior Member Array TSiWRX's Avatar
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    ^ I don't think that DRM is saying that it's new - in his "The Evolution of Stance" segment, he clearly takes us through the timeline.

    What I think DRM has done nicely is to show us the physics of why the "Roll-Over Wrist-Lock" works. Granted I haven't been around long at all, but I've been reading quite a bit, and this is the first I've seen/heard it presented in this way, and the first time where the importance of that leveraging pinky has been so stressed.

    A lot of people are 20 years behind on the curve!

  12. #56
    Distinguished Member Array claude clay's Avatar
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    so that I can make that critical shot that's more exacting than the 6-inch plate at 7-yards that I have to deliver from a draw, concealed, in less than a second and a half.

    TsiWRX---
    results trump the how. say it again--how you achieve it is secondary to having done it.

    and that an instructor was able to 'force' upon you another way of getting results adds
    skills to your toolbox. always a good thing.
    Skygod likes this.
    Be aware, be deliberate in your actions and be accurate.
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    Why do those elected to positions of power than work so hard
    to deny those same opportunities to the same people who empowered them

  13. #57
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    Lightbulb Yes, it is a Push-Pull Isometric…

    The Fist-Fire wrist lock is a “Push-Pull” isometric. But we don’t rely on the off hand bicep like they do with a Weaver stance. You will feel a little tension in the off hand bicep, but you should feel more tension in the off hand shoulder muscles as that is what pull the off hand rearwards.

    The best way is to accomplish this is to use the off hand shoulder muscles to “pull” the off hand rearward.

    You have to push the gun into the wrist lock to get it to work.
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  14. #58
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    Lightbulb

    Quote Originally Posted by Skygod View Post
    Nothing new here. This grip has been used for years by LEA and Military worldwide. If your using any other grip, your about 20 years behind the learning curve.
    I'll go on record here and say that I invented this grip. I wrote the book on it in 2002. But I can take it back even farther than that.

    But hey, if I’m wrong, it should be pretty easy to prove, right?

    All anyone has to do is bring fourth evidence to the contrary. Just show me one thing in print, in a book, on tape, anywhere, that predates 1999.

    Just show me someone or something written in the gun rags that predates 1999.

    For the Record:


    I have photo’s and video tape footage of me winning the 1999 World “Man vs. Man” Shoot Off Championships using this stance and grip. Further, there have been (2) articles written in Combat Handguns about my shooting style.

    Back in 2000 Bob Pilgrim (that's his pen name ) wrote an article and in 2002 he wrote another one. One of the photo’s clearly shows me and Daniel Horner (my young protégé at the time) and we are BOTH using this thumbs forward grip and the Reverse Chapman presentation (with left elbow locked straight). And the photo in the article was taken at the 1999 World Shoot Off Finals. Another photo shows Fist-Fire Instructor Robert Clavin in the Guard Position with the wrap around, fully rolled over, thumbs forward, wrist lock.
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  15. #59
    Senior Member Array TSiWRX's Avatar
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    ^ Now that's cool.

    Corrected, and noted.


    ----


    Quote Originally Posted by claude clay View Post
    TsiWRX--results trump the how. say it again--how you achieve it is secondary to having done it.
    ^ I agree, but at the same time, it's good to have a tool-box of the right tools to call upon, so I don't always have to rely on Lady Luck.

    and that an instructor was able to 'force' upon you another way of getting results adds
    skills to your toolbox. always a good thing.
    ^ Again, agreed. The more tools, the better.

  16. #60
    Senior Member Array Skygod's Avatar
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    There's really no need to provide any evidence. We have been using that grip for years in the military, at least the more seasoned units. Grant it, probably sometime in the early 90's is when I remembered being enlightened.

    I will say though that your video is more precise in the isometrics and physics of the wrist-lock than others I have seen. Although we believe that a reverse Chapman is not necessarily the best use of the specific muscles needed to apply the proper amount of grip pressure, both off hand and shooting hand. Different strokes for different folks. Combat and offensive applications can be and are very different from optimal competition styles.

    If you invented it, then somebody else out there did not document it prior to your claims.

    Good video none the less. We often referred to this grip as the "4-Point contact" ..." Thumbs forward" and now I can use the term "Wrist lock"

    No argument here. It's nice to have seasoned professionals on this site.

    Shoot straight and stay safe.

    Suggestion: Proceed with putting a patent on the grip and see who else may come out of the woodwork.
    Perhaps your sole purpose in life is to serve as a warning to others.

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