Proper Grip & Recoil Managment - Page 5

Proper Grip & Recoil Managment

This is a discussion on Proper Grip & Recoil Managment within the Defensive Carry & Tactical Training forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; can we go back and patent how to hold a stick or throw a rock? of course they did not have film in those days ...

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Thread: Proper Grip & Recoil Managment

  1. #61
    Distinguished Member Array claude clay's Avatar
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    can we go back and patent how to hold a stick or throw a rock?

    of course they did not have film in those days to take pictures of paper to print books with.
    yet there have always been individuals within groups who have a nack for something. and they play with how best
    to do it. fiddle with an idea and fine tune it or realize along the way that its not 'the' way and move on to other
    possibilities. and when they develope a way that works well; others notice and may observe and ask him ( or her)
    to show them how to do it.
    no one taught them--they figured it out for themselves.

    over the decades i've tried most every way possible to draw, hold and shot a gun. and even when its not right for me,
    i remember it for it may well serve another better.
    and often ways that don't work dovetail with other ways and become synergistic.

    but to lay claim of having invented something like how to hold a gun is to....well, perhaps you were the 1st to write it down.
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  2. #62
    Member Array Sixgunner's Avatar
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    Holding the pistol that way feels weird. I'm going to have to give it a try at the range next weekend.

    I been thinking of buying that DVD for a while but it does seem like latest and greatest "gun tactic". If this hold works I may break down and pick up the DVD.
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  3. #63
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    It is foolish and wrong to mourn the men who died. Rather we should thank God such men lived."
    -General George S. Patton
    I love that by line by GSP...AMEN!
    "...with liberty and justice for all..."
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  4. #64
    Member Array Olduser's Avatar
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    DRM & Claude

    I shot my New Agent & Ruger LC9 to experiment with your suggestions.



    The push/pull is more...I'm unsure how to explain this. The Colt grip was easier as it was larger. The smaller Ruger grip was more difficult given my hand. I was focusing on the energy to keep the push hand greater than the pull hand and my arms and stance. I was concentrating on the muscle feedback and pressure sensations to try and capture a body memory. Attempting this revealed my lazy L hand and my dependance upon the strong hand fingers.

    Nothing replaces hands on training, and I appreciate both of you taking the time to explain this.

    (This was the first target at about 7yds and you can see how I'm simply trying to learn and focus on the grip and nothing else.)

    DRM likes this.
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  5. #65
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    Lightbulb Good shooting, good hits, all along the spinal cord...

    OK, first off, the Ruger LC9 is not a fighting pistol. It’s a backup gun at best IMO. The smallest gun I choose to carry is the G19 or G23. Why? I can’t get enough purchase on any smaller weapon.

    Secondly, the 1911 needs to have a light rail on it for the off hand thumb to work against properly. The Mil-Spec dust cover is VERY thin and is useless in the fight to combat trigger torque.

    The 1911 dust cover is just too thin and off hand thumb slips off and down during recoil. But add a light rail and you’re good to go. On a side note, the STI 2011’s with the thicker dust cover work just fine with my grip.

    Further, many guns are simply “under designed” when it comes to gripping using my method. Many of them will not lock the slide open on the last shot. Hopefully that will change in the future as firearms designers get input on what has been pioneered in regards to proper grip and recoil control. The perfect handgun has not yet been designed. When it is, it will accommodate the proper grip.

    But you're right, it's hard to coach you when I can't see your grip or your presentation. How about a picture or two or ten?
    Mike1956 likes this.
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  6. #66
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    Lightbulb The Perfect Grip for controlling recoil...

    but to lay claim of having invented something like how to hold a gun is to....well, perhaps you were the 1st to write it down.
    No, I figured it out, tested it in World Class competition, then I wrote it down in a book…

    Look, with all due respect, I think you guys are missing some points about this grip.

    Firstly, just because your off hand finger is pointing forward, it does not mean you're in a full “Roll Over” wrist lock.

    Also, “locking of the tendons” (which we hear so much from the MOD-ISO crowd) is not the same as a true roll-over-wrist-lock. They are clam shell squeezing with the off hand which uses ALL the muscles in the forearms. We do not squeeze, so we only used about 1/3 of the muscles in the forearm.

    Further, this grip will NOT work with the MOD-ISO. Why? Because to get this grip the off hand arm and elbow must be WAY higher than the strong hand.

    Take another look at the video and notice the gap in the back of Barb’s hands. The guys who were pointing their thumb forward back then had the heel of their hands together, whereas my grip has a HUGE gap. This is because I have purposely reached WAY around in front of the gun to control from the FRONT STRAP of the gun. The MOD-ISO guys like to have the heels of the hands together in the rear. In my camp we don’t care about the rear of the gun. Take a look:

    "...with liberty and justice for all..."
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  7. #67
    VIP Member Array Harryball's Avatar
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    DRM, How does your grip differ from the Leatham-Enos Grip developed in the 1980s? They also mention the wrist lock.
    Don"t let stupid be your skill set....

    Never be ashamed of a scar. It simply means, that you were stronger than whatever tried to hurt you......

  8. #68
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    Lightbulb The Perfect Grip for controlling recoil...

    Thanks for asking Harry...

    First off, let me say that if I were using a grip that they had used (i.e., that I was stealing from them), Brian Enos would be ALL over me about it on his forums. But nobody said boo about it. Here’s some pictures of Rob Leatham, arguably the BEST 1911 shooter of all time in the MOD-ISO, which is the presentation that HE made famous:

    Rob Leatham MOD ISO.jpg ROB LEATHAM LEFT SIDE VIEW.jpg
    (click on photo to enlarge)

    Notice how both his elbows are bent and at the same level. Also notice how the vertical centerline of the trigger guard lines ups perfectly with the row of knuckles on his off hand. This is because he is NOT reaching around in front of the gun as far as I am.

    Now, here is a photo of my youngest daughter C.J. in my FULL EXTENSION shooting position using my grip. Notice how FAR around in the front of the gun she is reaching. When shoulders are square to the threat, the left arm has to be higher and straighter than the right:
    CJ FULL EXTENSION.jpg
    (click on photo to enlarge)
    Photo courtesy FIST-FIRE Book Copyright 2002 Tactical Shooting Academy
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  9. #69
    Distinguished Member Array TSiWRX's Avatar
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    I lack the depth-of-knowledge as well as the time-in-experience to be able to really talk in this thread , but I hope that the more experienced shooters will help point me in the right direction, if I err. After all, how else can one learn?

    While DRM came to this thread to answer Harryball's question, I was reminded of this article, which several experienced shooters turned me on to, when I first began but two Novembers ago:

    The Combat Grip

    The differences I took away, from that article and DRM's Fist/Fire DVD are:

    Lathem/Enos's grip are more optimized, biomechanically, for the Mod-Iso/Chapman stance, whereas DRM's is more optimized for the presentation that, at full-lock, is the Reverse Chapman.

    Lathem/Enos's grip does not cam the wrist as forward as DRM's (the thumb position as well as extrapolating where their support/reaction-hand fingers would index, if-extended, along with knuckle alignment as DRM mentioned above, all serve as visual verification) - Sevigny's comes closer to being that of the full "Roll-Over Wrist Lock" of DRM's gestation, but even then, it can be seen that Sevigny's grip isn't quite the same.

    Enos's grip does not utilize the thumb of the support/reaction-hand.

    ----

    As a side-note, I find it very interesting, as a purely "defensive" shooter, to read about and try to understand the finer points of the techniques of these proven masters. Although I tend to default to the "100/100" as made popular by Magpul and the like, I know from even the little experience I've had so far that while it can produce excellent "combat" accuracy, when absolute precision is called upon or when protracted engagements are expected, this near-convulsive grip can throw shots off the mark, as well as bring about early fatigue. I am currently at a stage in my training where I am seeking more accuracy and precision, and the tips about fine grip control, including such subtle notes as thumb placement, really are coming into play!

    I've been trying to find a bit more about Bob Vogel's grip, but so far have come up short - it's said from various AARs of his classes/seminars that he runs a very high grip, and from some of the YouTube segments I've found of his Panteo videos, it looks like it's very similar to what DRM advocates. In one such video, actually, it's easy to see that Jessie Abbate's grip looks very much like the full "Roll-Over Wrist-Lock" as-taught by DRM. Lacking any further insights, I'll be picking his brain in a class that 1911Addicts have lined up, here in NE-Ohio, in another month or so.
    DRM and LuvMyPX4 like this.

  10. #70
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    WOW! Somebody is paying attention in class. Thanks for posting!
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  11. #71
    VIP Member Array Harryball's Avatar
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    Thanks for the prompt reply DRM....I see the difference in the pics you posted.
    Don"t let stupid be your skill set....

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  12. #72
    Distinguished Member Array TSiWRX's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DRM View Post
    WOW! Somebody is paying attention in class. Thanks for posting!
    ^ No, no, thank *you* for teaching!

    You/your school is on my "bucket list." One of these days, I'll be there!

  13. #73
    Distinguished Member Array claude clay's Avatar
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    working out what works in various situations, training as i felt reflected how events in the real world of SD would best be met,
    and tuning it as it works best for me. very true as you say that coaching in person is the best method...
    when the coach can see real time what the shooter is doing and modify in real time...well, thats why classes are held together.

    math and many subjects can be done by skypee or messenging. shooting skill, not so well.

    and many methods work--and work differently cause we are all a little different. and a good teacher recognizes this
    and agjusts methods to the student. the cookie cutter methods of the military gets the most people up and running in the shortest
    time, but it does not bring out the best a individual may be capable of.

    olduser--good target and groupings. especially that the high right circle grouped to the right is better than had it been to the left.
    you will likely self correct quickly if you can get your pinky on the grip
    Arthritis sucks big-big
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  14. #74
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    Quote Originally Posted by TSiWRX View Post
    ^ No, no, thank *you* for teaching!

    You/your school is on my "bucket list." One of these days, I'll be there!
    My pleasure...

    Thanks Gents!
    "...with liberty and justice for all..."
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  15. #75
    Distinguished Member Array TSiWRX's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TSiWRX View Post
    I've been trying to find a bit more about Bob Vogel's grip, but so far have come up short - it's said from various AARs of his classes/seminars that he runs a very high grip, and from some of the YouTube segments I've found of his Panteo videos, it looks like it's very similar to what DRM advocates. In one such video, actually, it's easy to see that Jessie Abbate's grip looks very much like the full "Roll-Over Wrist-Lock" as-taught by DRM. Lacking any further insights, I'll be picking his brain in a class that 1911Addicts have lined up, here in NE-Ohio, in another month or so.
    Vogel held an awesome class for us this past weekend.

    He covered his take on the grip, in-depth, during the "classroom" portion of the day. He ranks the grip, as many top shooters/trainers do, as being among the most important aspects of the fundamentals.

    As other AARs have reported, Vogel does indeed run a very high grip with both hands. His support/reaction/weak hand is actually placed as forward as possible. He locks out his wrist, as well as the rest of his arms, the latter rolling in with significant pressure. He is also a proponent of the lower body doing what it has to do - yes, it'd be great to have it, as an ideal, but overall, let it do what it has to do, and divorce the upper body - but he stresses upper-body control, and his upper body "stance" is definitely that of the Reverse Chapman, as the lock-out at full-extension would imply (the tell-tale of the support shoulder and arm being at a higher line).
    DRM likes this.

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