Proper Grip & Recoil Managment - Page 6

Proper Grip & Recoil Managment

This is a discussion on Proper Grip & Recoil Managment within the Defensive Carry & Tactical Training forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; DRM, I've been using this grip for probably a good number of years now, and it always amazes me when I occasionally see others shooting ...

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  1. #76
    VIP Member Array jonconsiglio's Avatar
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    DRM,

    I've been using this grip for probably a good number of years now, and it always amazes me when I occasionally see others shooting a semi auto with a thumb over thumb grip instead of thumbs forward.

    I am not doubting you or questioning anything you've said, but I have a question that you could probably clear up for me. I've always understood that Rob Leatham and Brian Enos have been credited with the thumbs forward grip dating back to the mid 80's I believe and he credits this grip for some of his titles.

    Anyway, what is different between the grip that is credited to Leatham and Enos and your's? What I can see is that Leatham at the time did not wrap his support hand around the front of the grip as much and the support thumb was maybe not as far forward, but it still was a thumbs forward grip.

    Thanks so much for your time. I appreciate the demonstration of the support hand only, that'll come in handy next time I'm working with an officer that holds his thumbs crossed!

    http://www.theshootingschool.org/art...ombat_Grip.pdf

    Here you can see pics of this grip used prior to 1989

    1980 to 1989 – Photos by Nyle Leatham
    Last edited by jonconsiglio; April 17th, 2012 at 06:06 PM. Reason: Bolded the important part
    Proven combat techniques may not be flashy and may require a bit more physical effort on the part of the shooter. Further, they may not win competition matches, but they will help ensure your survival in a shooting or gunfight on the street. ~Paul Howe


  2. #77
    VIP Member Array jonconsiglio's Avatar
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    As for the proper stance, I've found that it's a natural reaction when the adrenaline dumps. Emerson talks about this in his knife classes. Let's say you walk around the corner and bump into someone in your home, most likely family. You naturally go into a defensive position. The abs tighten and crunch to protect internals, elbows come in, shoulders go up to protect the sides of the neck, chin drops to protect the throat and the hands come up to protect the face.

    Well, this is the same stance many of us now use with the thumbs forward grip since we're a long time away from the heavily bladed, upright Weaver stance. So, whether we're going hands on, grabbing a knife, drawing a handgun or coming up from a low (or high) ready with a carbine, this stance will work for all of them.

    Now, I can tell you from personal experience that being caught off guard and needing your handgun NOW, you can still get into a proper stance as it's a natural reaction. I'm not saying this will happen as well as a proper draw and grip on it's own, but with a lot of training it can become natural and something that will just happen when needed without much thought on the process. Of course you could be hands on at this point and only be able to get your first hits "from the hip", but as you move back you'll come to that point.

    Just a side note I wanted to point out after reading a few comments on this grip and different positions. The thumbs forward grip and a universal fighting stance go hand in hand. I know it's hard for the Weaver/bladed guys to get used to this, but once it happens it's like an epiphany and will flow seamlessly with your H2H, knife and carbine training.
    DRM likes this.
    Proven combat techniques may not be flashy and may require a bit more physical effort on the part of the shooter. Further, they may not win competition matches, but they will help ensure your survival in a shooting or gunfight on the street. ~Paul Howe

  3. #78
    VIP Member Array Harryball's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jonconsiglio View Post
    DRM,

    I've been using this grip for probably a good number of years now, and it always amazes me when I occasionally see others shooting a semi auto with a thumb over thumb grip instead of thumbs forward.

    I am not doubting you or questioning anything you've said, but I have a question that you could probably clear up for me. I've always understood that Rob Leatham and Brian Enos have been credited with the thumbs forward grip dating back to the mid 80's I believe and he credits this grip for some of his titles.

    Anyway, what is different between the grip that is credited to Leatham and Enos and your's? What I can see is that Leatham at the time did not wrap his support hand around the front of the grip as much and the support thumb was maybe not as far forward, but it still was a thumbs forward grip.

    Thanks so much for your time. I appreciate the demonstration of the support hand only, that'll come in handy next time I'm working with an officer that holds his thumbs crossed!

    http://www.theshootingschool.org/art...ombat_Grip.pdf

    Here you can see pics of this grip used prior to 1989

    1980 to 1989 – Photos by Nyle Leatham
    Jon, I asked this same question a page or so back. DRM responded with pics and commentary...
    DRM likes this.
    Don"t let stupid be your skill set....

    Never be ashamed of a scar. It simply means, that you were stronger than whatever tried to hurt you......

  4. #79
    Distinguished Member Array TSiWRX's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jonconsiglio View Post
    DRM,

    I've been using this grip for probably a good number of years now, and it always amazes me when I occasionally see others shooting a semi auto with a thumb over thumb grip instead of thumbs forward.

    I am not doubting you or questioning anything you've said, but I have a question that you could probably clear up for me. I've always understood that Rob Leatham and Brian Enos have been credited with the thumbs forward grip dating back to the mid 80's I believe and he credits this grip for some of his titles.

    Anyway, what is different between the grip that is credited to Leatham and Enos and your's? What I can see is that Leatham at the time did not wrap his support hand around the front of the grip as much and the support thumb was maybe not as far forward, but it still was a thumbs forward grip.

    Thanks so much for your time. I appreciate the demonstration of the support hand only, that'll come in handy next time I'm working with an officer that holds his thumbs crossed!

    http://www.theshootingschool.org/art...ombat_Grip.pdf

    Here you can see pics of this grip used prior to 1989

    1980 to 1989 – Photos by Nyle Leatham
    I don't want to speak for DRM , but look between posts 54, 58, 60, and 67 through 71.

    [ Edited to add: looks like I'm late to the party! Harryball got to it before I did! ]


    ----


    RE: stance -
    @ jonconsiglio, I'm lucky...I don't know if it's just blind luck or my years of martial-arts training when I was younger (and much more fit ), but my natural-Point-of-Aim precisely overlaps my "fighting stance."

    The issue, for me, has been that my "fighting stance" is noticeably more bladed than optimal for the employment of the Reverse Chapman. When I first started shooting in November of 2010, I had to really work to get to the Mod-Iso, and after that, while one instructor was trying to get me to square-up my "stance" more, another discovered that maybe forcing me to do that was what caused me to pull ever-so-slightly off the bull.

    To me, being able to get into the full "stance" is a luxury. Certainly, I default to it under stress, regardless of if it is H2H, knife/improvised, or with the gun...but even that assumes that I will be stationary and that I will be able to get there - and that's not always possible.

    I've very much appreciated the efforts of the instructors/trainers who have drilled into me the need to be able to divorce the upper body from the lower: to just let the lower body do what it needs to do, fitting the situation (and if that situation allows for me to get into my fighting stance, then all the better!), but to isolate the upper body so that I can best get my shots on-target. Cerino made me do one of his classes with my feet and legs completely together, and that really opened my eyes.

    On the flip side of this, there was another interesting observation from this past weekend with Vogel...the class was "Defensive Handgun," but it also had a decidedly gaming twist to it as well, which I very much appreciated (and which has driven me to get in to competitive shooting, to better my gun skills). Vogel noticed that I was reflexively dropping into my "fighting stance," just as Cerino had caught me - even though the drill did not specify that I had to do anything other than draw and shoot - and that means that there's just maybe that tenth of a second extra added to my set time, because my body is still in-motion.

  5. #80
    VIP Member Array jonconsiglio's Avatar
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    Thanks guys. So, you can see how much I read before posting! DRM, I hope you know, like I said in my first post, that I did not doubt you in any way. I was just curious of the differences. I'll look more into the differences. Hopefully I'll learn something new from this. I'm always trying to refine my grip and stance to get the best shot recovery possible.


    TSiWRX - Yeah, ideal if stationary, certainly. The last time I needed my handgun I moved fast and hard, while drawing, off of his line. When I raised the gun, I was still stopping and bracing. The time before that we were in a car and hands on, so there was nothing smooth or fluid about it.

    I've spent years training with firearms, but I really refined things all around once I started training in knife fighting/defense. It really brought everything together for me and I'm glad I did it.
    DRM likes this.
    Proven combat techniques may not be flashy and may require a bit more physical effort on the part of the shooter. Further, they may not win competition matches, but they will help ensure your survival in a shooting or gunfight on the street. ~Paul Howe

  6. #81
    Distinguished Member Array TSiWRX's Avatar
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    ^ I agree - I'm definitely very much on the "bring it all together" boat, too. Force-on-Force was what opened my eyes for me: understanding that, in the real-world, it's about fighting to win or even to survive...and if that means using my fingers to scratch or picking up a fallen branch as an improvised weapon, so be it, that it may not necessarily always be the gun - but to be able to integrate the gun into the whole.

    Thank you for sharing your experiences with us, jonconsiglio. I definitely appreciate all the insights that you've given, as my lifestyle (thankfully!) exposes me to very little of the worst parts of humanity.
    DRM likes this.

  7. #82
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    Lightbulb My Grip vs. Rob Leatham (TGO)

    Hi Jon,

    I understand the confusion, and I think I can bring even more clarity to the discussion.

    First off, I never called it a “Thumbs Forward Grip" because I knew if would cause confusion. But as of late, that’s what everyone seems to be calling it.

    Myself, I have always referred to is as a “Fully-Rolled-Over-Wrist-Lock” both in my book and on my DVD’s.

    Now, as far as the actual locking of the wrist goes, where the thumb “points” really has nothing to do with the wrist lock itself (although it does serve other purposes).

    Yes, Robbie was the first to point his thumbs forward, but he does not use a true, Fully Rolled Over Wrist Lock. He (like most all Mod Iso shooters) lock the tendons by clam shell squeezing with the off hand. I don’t squeeze, I cup and freeze (stiffen) the fingers and thumb of the off hand.

    Further, the article you referenced by Duane Thomas on the “Combat Grip” is from the 2006 Handguns Magazine. And the ONLY guy in that article using a roll over wrist lock is my buddy Dave Sevigny. Did you know he was left eye dominant? He rolls his right elbow up to shift the gun over to his left eye, otherwise he'd be in the Reverse Weaver.

    BOTTOM LINE: Just because the thumbs point forward, it does not mean you have achieved wrist lock. A “Rule of Thumb” you can use to judge this is that if they're shooting MOD ISO, then they're probably not using a fully rolled over wrist lock.

    I say “probably” because unless you have crazy wrist bones and well stretched tendons it would be VERY, VERY uncomfortable to do so.

    Thanks Harry and TSiIWRX for your input.
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  8. #83
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    Lightbulb

    As for the proper stance, I've found that it's a natural reaction when the adrenaline dumps. Emerson talks about this in his knife classes…
    EXACTLY!!

    Here’s a quote from a MMA guy right after training with me back in 2000:


    "The FIST-FIRE System of shooting fit right in with my gyms focus on realistic methods of training for urban survival. The stances and presentations of the FIST-FIRE system fit seamlessly with our current empty hand techniques. Kicking, striking with the off hand, striking with the weapon, handgun takeaways, weapons retention, and non-lethal control all integrate perfectly with the FIST-FIRE System, making it truly THE Martial Art of Defensive Shooting.” - Adam Singer, Georgia

    adamsinger1.jpg

    The photo shows Adam Singer coaching Forrest Griffin to the 1st Ultimate Fighter Victory.
    Photo courtesy The Hard Core Gym (www.TheHardCoreGym.net):




    "...with liberty and justice for all..."
    (Must be 18. Void where prohibited. Some restrictions may apply. Not available in all states). - D. Stanhope

    D.R. Middlebrooks - Pro Shooting Coach & Custom Gunsmith
    Tactical Shooting Academy & Custom Shop
    www.TacticalShooting.com

  9. #84
    VIP Member Array jonconsiglio's Avatar
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    I see the difference as I kind of thought they'd be in my first post. Thanks for clearing it up. That's the grip I use as well. I learned of the thumbs forward grip (as many call it) many years ago, but for the past handful of years I've really been locking my wrist as you talk about. I wouldn't be surprised if I saw it in your video years back and worked on it from there. Many respected instructors are now teaching that as well, so fortunately it caught on with the better trainers.
    Proven combat techniques may not be flashy and may require a bit more physical effort on the part of the shooter. Further, they may not win competition matches, but they will help ensure your survival in a shooting or gunfight on the street. ~Paul Howe

  10. #85
    Member Array John123's Avatar
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    Not trying to start a flame war here, but I just can't stomach the marketing hype. The whole FIST-FIRE explosions, limousines, matrix style look just reeks of the "Extreme Shok" hyped up marketing style that usually under performs. I say this in all honesty because what your preaching is legitimate, it warrants better marketing than that.

    Again, not knocking your technique OP, just the marketing. I guess you could say I am "judging a book by its cover" and admittedly I am. Now I'll put on my flak, kevlar and wait for the incoming!!!!

  11. #86
    VIP Member Array Harryball's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by John123 View Post
    Not trying to start a flame war here, but I just can't stomach the marketing hype. The whole FIST-FIRE explosions, limousines, matrix style look just reeks of the "Extreme Shok" hyped up marketing style that usually under performs. I say this in all honesty because what your preaching is legitimate, it warrants better marketing than that.

    Again, not knocking your technique OP, just the marketing. I guess you could say I am "judging a book by its cover" and admittedly I am. Now I'll put on my flak, kevlar and wait for the incoming!!!!
    I havent been on DRMs side in some other threads, however, with this I am. His technique has helped a lot of people, and I do not use the FIST FIRE technique. From what I can tell, DRM is an upstanding member of the Gun community. His marketing isnt that bad, he makes his point and allows the flock to make up there own mind. Im my book thats a pretty good instructor. Remember, an open mind can be your friend...
    Don"t let stupid be your skill set....

    Never be ashamed of a scar. It simply means, that you were stronger than whatever tried to hurt you......

  12. #87
    Member Array John123's Avatar
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    Harry, I fully agree with your last line and I will second that I am in no way critiquing the OPs technique or teaching style. I really am just trying to give a bit of constructive criticism as a consumer, as the OP is selling a product. I'll keep in mind that the "advertisement/cover" was done ten years ago... Maybe it's just time to upgrade! Of course this is just my opinion, if no one else agrees than keep on keepin' on, as Joe Dirt would say.

    As a consumer of the gun industry I tend to give the flashy, whiz-bang "Extreme Shok" style advertising wide berth. I merely think the OPs advertising doesn't give his product full credit, that's all. Like you said, maybe I just need to be more open minded.

  13. #88
    VIP Member Array Harryball's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by John123 View Post
    Harry, I fully agree with your last line and I will second that I am in no way critiquing the OPs technique or teaching style. I really am just trying to give a bit of constructive criticism as a consumer, as the OP is selling a product. I'll keep in mind that the "advertisement/cover" was done ten years ago... Maybe it's just time to upgrade! Of course this is just my opinion, if no one else agrees than keep on keepin' on, as Joe Dirt would say.

    As a consumer of the gun industry I tend to give the flashy, whiz-bang "Extreme Shok" style advertising wide berth. I merely think the OPs advertising doesn't give his product full credit, that's all. Like you said, maybe I just need to be more open minded.
    Gotcha, I might have misunderstood your original post. Thanks for the clearing that up....
    Don"t let stupid be your skill set....

    Never be ashamed of a scar. It simply means, that you were stronger than whatever tried to hurt you......

  14. #89
    Member Array John123's Avatar
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    No prob... On a lighter note it warms my soul to see threads reaching well into six pages just discussing proper grip and recoil control! These are the discussions that really matter, not the next new magic bullet or argument on 9mm vs 45acp...

    I promise I'm also not nearly as shallow as my original post sounds, technique and training are vastly more important than a hardware discussion, so I must also credit the OP in starting a lengthy discussion on what really matters.

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    Distinguished Member Array TSiWRX's Avatar
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    True story, because it's my story:

    When I started all of this, I thought that "Magpul" was about as Mall-Ninja as it got. Even though I wasn't a part of "The Gun World," I still was hit enough times with that name that I thought that there just *had* to be a gimmick.

    A couple of weeks pass, and I cave to peer pressure - I bought the discs.

    You know what? It's not the name. It's not the sometimes wacky and out-dated graphics/cut-scenes. Focus on what these guys have to teach. I can't imagine that producing a DVD is either easy or cheap. I'd rather learn from the materials, than have to pay more for "modern marketing."

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