Hickok, Hardin and how the dynamics of confrontation remain the same - Page 2

Hickok, Hardin and how the dynamics of confrontation remain the same

This is a discussion on Hickok, Hardin and how the dynamics of confrontation remain the same within the Defensive Carry & Tactical Training forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; Tame Bill , awesome post....

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Thread: Hickok, Hardin and how the dynamics of confrontation remain the same

  1. #16
    Member Array Cruel Hand Luke's Avatar
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    Tame Bill , awesome post.
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  2. #17
    Member Array Eichorn's Avatar
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    I very much agree that taking lessons from the past is both interesting and useful. In Massad Ayoob's latest book, Combat Shooting, he has a section on Wyatt Earp which was a very interesting read.

    In the account I read of Hickok's death, he reportedly asked another man sitting at the table to change places with him, several times, but the man refused (leaving him in the vulnerable position he was then shot in).

  3. #18
    Senior Member Array AZ Hawk's Avatar
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    Excellent post, Luke. Thanks for posting.
    Move. Shoot. Survive. ― The "Unofficial" Suarez International Doctrine

    “The real man smiles in trouble, gathers strength from distress and grows brave by reflection.” ― Thomas Paine

  4. #19
    New Member Array TameBill's Avatar
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    August 2nd, 1876 approximately 3pm - Nuttall and Mann's #10...

    Hickok asked Charlie Rich, who had the wall seat, to change seats. Rich, a friend, chided Hickok and told him not to worry that no one was going to attack him. Several minutes into the card game Hickok asked Rich to change seats again. This time Carl Mann, Charlie Rich and Captain Massie good naturedly ribbed Wild Bill about his paranoia. Hickok return to his seat with Rich on his right, Mann on his left and Massie directly across the table.

    Charles Henry Rich was one of Hickok's pallbearers who according to several family members never forgave himself for not giving up his seat that fateful day in August.

    Sources:
    "Hard Knocks" by Harry Samuel Young
    "I Buried Hickok, the Memoirs of White-eye Anderson" edited by William B. Secrest
    "They Called Him Wild Bill, The Life and Adventures of James Butler Hickok" - 2nd edition revised and enlarged by Joseph G. Rosa
    Last edited by TameBill; February 29th, 2012 at 07:42 AM.
    msgt/ret and tcox4freedom like this.
    I never, in my life, took any mean advantage of an enemy, but I never allowed a man to get the drop on me either.

  5. #20
    Member Array Eichorn's Avatar
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    One can't help but wonder how things might have turned out if they had traded seats.

    Apparently, preparedness vs. paranoia was an issue even then!

  6. #21
    VIP Member Array Bad Bob's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by raytracer View Post
    When his debtor excersized his right to free speech by mocking Wild Bill, Hickok then confronted the man and allowed the disagreement to escalate to a lethal encounter.
    Inflammatory speech is not protected by the first amendment, nor is slander.

  7. #22
    VIP Member Array old grunt's Avatar
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    For a modern modern take on real world shootings check out.."Jim Cirillo's Tales of the Stakeout Squad". This follows the actual incidents of the NYPD's famous unit in the late 60's,early 70's. A GREAT read.
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  8. #23
    VIP Member Array xXxplosive's Avatar
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    Can't even imagine what could have been going through Rich's mind when that shot was fired......Geeezzzzz.

  9. #24
    Member Array raytracer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 40Bob View Post
    Inflammatory speech is not protected by the first amendment, nor is slander.
    Yes, it is. c.f. Brandenburg v. Ohio

    slander n. oral defamation, in which someone tells one or more persons an untruth about another which untruth will harm the reputation of the person defamed.
    The key word there is "untruth". Hickock was, in fact, unable to cover his bet and Tutt had his pocket watch as collateral to prove it, however much of an ass he was to make boast of it.

    Joe

  10. #25
    Member Array SteveStealth's Avatar
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    Lot's of interesting stuff here and after reading most of it, I am reminded of the closing scene of the Western Movie with Clint Eastwood, The Unforgiven. I'm sure most of you have seen this movie and that last scene can teach us a very valuable lesson in gun fighting. I played that scene over and over again and I even watched it in slow motion several times and counted every bullet. Clint's second shotgun round misfires but he doesn't panic, then he throws his shotgun at Gene Hackman, then quickly draws his handgun and shoots Gene. He also begins to shoot anyone who shoots at him or who goes for their gun. The thing is, he seems to do this very slow with good aim and the others are shooting fast and inaccurate in a panic mode. This scene, I believe, was very thought out with respect to a real gunfight and the lesson I learned was to stay as calm as you can and make every shot count. Shot placement is the most important thing in a gunfight. I think this is my Favorite Western or at least my Top Three.

  11. #26
    New Member Array TameBill's Avatar
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    The dispute was over the exact amount of a personal loan, not Hickok's ability to cover a gambling bet. Upon Tutt's request Hickok paid him $25 dollars. Tutt claimed it was $35. Hickok stated that he could produce a memorandum confirming that the amount was in fact $25. Tutt refused the offered confirmation and became uncharacteristically antagonistic toward his friend. Wild Bill's watch was on the table in the gambling room of the Lyon's House where Wild Bill was engaged in a game of poker with several other men, not Tutt. Tutt took Hickok's watch, a silver Waltham repeater, and stated that Hickok would have to pay $35 additional to regain his watch. Hickok, Tutt's half brother and several other mutual friends were stunned by Tutt's odd behavior. Do not forget Tutt needed cash to pay back Thomas Martin who had provided $100 to keep Tutt out of jail. This was a substantial amount of money in that day and age. Today's equivalent of $2,500 dollars maybe a tad bit more. Tutt needed cash and for some unknown reason instead of asking his friend for a loan in addition to the repayment of a personal debt, he embarked upon a path that resulted in his death.
    I never, in my life, took any mean advantage of an enemy, but I never allowed a man to get the drop on me either.

  12. #27
    VIP Member Array Bad Bob's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by raytracer View Post
    Yes, it is. c.f. Brandenburg v. Ohio



    The key word there is "untruth". Hickock was, in fact, unable to cover his bet and Tutt had his pocket watch as collateral to prove it, however much of an ass he was to make boast of it.

    Joe
    Perhaps I used the wrong word, perhaps you are splitting hairs. I used the term (Inflammatory words" perhaps I should have used "Fighting words".

    Brandenburg v. Ohio, 395 U.S. 444 (1969), was a landmark United States Supreme Court case based on the First Amendment to the U.S. Constitution. It held that government cannot punish inflammatory speech unless it is directed to inciting and likely to incite imminent lawless action.

  13. #28
    Distinguished Member Array Jason Storm's Avatar
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    Jut this past week, I have been doing a lot of research on the Wild West and even bought a book on it. I also bought the HBO western series Deadwood too. The research also have me an understanding on how settlements evolved into towns, and eventually, the cities. And after the 20th century, gun carry become a no-no in most places. It's also hard to fathom how folks could wear dusters and other layers of hot clothing in a 100 degree heat as well as having to go to a bath house just to shave and get a bath.

  14. #29
    Ex Member Array Yoda's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jason Storm View Post
    Jut this past week, I have been doing a lot of research on the Wild West and even bought a book on it. I also bought the HBO western series Deadwood too. The research also have me an understanding on how settlements evolved into towns, and eventually, the cities. And after the 20th century, gun carry become a no-no in most places. It's also hard to fathom how folks could wear dusters and other layers of hot clothing in a 100 degree heat as well as having to go to a bath house just to shave and get a bath.
    How is Deadwood?


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

  15. #30
    Member Array raytracer's Avatar
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    Deadwood is awesome. Not 100% historically accurate, but great. Also language and violence is very much PG13-R rated, so not for the kiddies.

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