FOF Tueller Drill
This is a discussion on FOF Tueller Drill within the Defensive Carry & Tactical Training forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; Originally Posted by claude clay
very good exercise showing the well known action beats re-action.
and the shooter needs to move--the attackers momentum even following ...
January 11th, 2012 07:40 PM
Claude, You make some good observations here but I have to disagree with the plan of going to ground. Going to ground immobilizes you and should be a last resort. True, it gives you two more powerful weapons (legs) but most are not trained in how to use them effectively. The other and perhaps most important thing about planning on going to the ground is that you have to actually train to do it and then you have conditioned yourself to go to ground. The danger is when you find yourself in a rock or broken bottle strewn area you will revert to your training and find yourself doing something you really wouldn't choose to do if you could think about it first. I would try to reserve that for a last ditch move to get out of arms reach while effecting a take-down.
Originally Posted by claude clay
Correct me if I have misinterpreted your meaning.
January 12th, 2012 01:07 PM
thank you for your well thought out comments...and....i should have emphasized "if you can".
Originally Posted by Hoganbeg
also am a strong proponent of taking a martial arts course, even 6 months to teach you how to stand, move, take a hit and keep in the fight: and also how to fall.
my going to ground is not collapsing--rather bend at the knees and than roll onto your hips and shoulders; transitioning as necessary to your back as you track the BG.
training is a must as you have to know the condition of the ground, as you pointed out, and you have in your hand, finger inside the trigger guard, a gun you have just fired.
i would agree this is a risk maneuver even if you have practiced: risk of sweeping your own legs, risk of touching off a round unintended.
in a fight for your life--some risky actions may be necessary. as you note--"a last ditch move".
my art of choice is Kung Fu and though i hae not practiced in many years, i have been 'imprinted' for life.
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January 12th, 2012 01:23 PM
I agree.....not meant to be taken out of context.....just a drill / guideline......not written in stone as DT said himself.
January 12th, 2012 02:55 PM
Thanks for the vid...every little piece of info about 'possibilities' can be helpful.
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January 12th, 2012 10:49 PM
The main problem with the Tueller Drill is that the shooter is prepared for the oncoming attack.
Thus, he is more able to draw and fire and win.
In real life it dosent happen this way. The guy with the knife will wait until you are distracted and it may be that you dont even know that he has a knife and wants to cut you, it may be that you dont even expect anything out of the norm.
Something as simple as turning away to look at something else for a few seconds will shorten the gap considerably and give the attacker the edge.
In the video, the shooter did well because he was focused and practiced.
In life, it hardly ever happens this way. You hear noise, you turn to look and you are getting cut without even realizing it.
You are down, you are bleeding and you are wondering what in the heck happened.
January 13th, 2012 07:49 AM
This is why we need to know how and what to do inside arms length. You may not need your gun in hand until you have created distance and time to bring gun into fight. Gun if not always the answer to ever situation.
Originally Posted by GrandBob
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January 13th, 2012 09:09 AM
Thanks for the video. I've been looking for a good one to use in training classes.
The range I use to teach NRA Personal Protection in the Home includes the Tueller Drill, but the range I use isn't suitable to actually do it (not flat, obstacles, etc. so that someone could get hurt running), so the video can make a good demo of the technique instead.
January 13th, 2012 03:29 PM
Glad you elaborated on this. I am a LEO DT Trainer and we always teach our students to stay on their feet if at all possible. I say that also being a Black Belt in Brazilian Jiu Jitsu and teaching BJJ since 2002. Bad stuff happens in the transition from vertical to horizontal. If the decision is no longer yours and you are being taken to the ground, know how to land and get back in the fight/ "Guns Up" but look for the first opportunity to get back vertical ASAP or as practical. I have seen many people want to drop to their back as a default after training in martial arts and in my opinion, this is misguided.
Originally Posted by claude clay
January 13th, 2012 04:12 PM
Please don't be discouraged by the posts. It's an excellent video and training. Thanks for putting yourself out there. It makes us all better prepared when we can discuss and improve.
Originally Posted by rick21
"Everybody's got a plan, 'til they get hit".
January 14th, 2012 07:06 AM
This is the policy advised in my martial arts school also. While we do practice throws, takedowns, and groundfighting, going to ground is the least-preferred option. The phrase Isr Matrix uses above, "bad things can happen on the ground," is one I've heard many times. There are rocks, debris, parking lot berms, peoples' shoes with feet in them, all kinds of stuff down there you are better off avoiding if you can.
we always teach our students to stay on their feet if at all possible
The Tueller Drill is useful for a lot of things. It is not a training exercise as much as it is an awareness-building activity. It proves to the participants that a firearm is difficult to deploy within the parameters of the drill, and reinforces the concept of "getting off the x." For interested readers, here's the original article by Dan Tueller.
"It may seem difficult at first, but everything is difficult at first."
January 16th, 2012 10:41 PM
Thanks Rick21, it shows that back-pedaling off-line really helps in that situation.
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January 17th, 2012 01:56 PM
The group I train with has a 4 wheeled cart with a pull rope similar to the second video, but more stable. The first time we did the Tueller drill, about half didn't even get their gun out of the holster the first time. It was a real eye opener. We discussed it afterwards and realized that if someone decided to charge us at full speed with a knife, we would get cut before getting a shot off. Moving laterally is probably the best way to minimize injury.
Even after successfully shooting the BG, you need to move off the X or you will get cut.
January 17th, 2012 07:05 PM
I started to cut right rearward angle and for some reason I went straight backward. Going on right or left rearwrd angles works best for contact weapons, at least it has in the past. Luckily in this drill I got off some shots before he ran me down.
Originally Posted by Bob O
January 19th, 2012 02:53 PM
Just saw this last night and it reminded me of this thread. Some good points made in the video that were also brought up by folks on this conversation.
The Best Defense: The Tueller Drill / Air times on Outdoor Channel: 01-18-12 at 7:30PM | 01-18-12 at 11:30PM | 01-19-12 at 2:30AM, all times Eastern.
Brief 90sec clip showing what happens when you don't get off the X.
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