FOF Tueller Drill

FOF Tueller Drill

This is a discussion on FOF Tueller Drill within the Defensive Carry & Tactical Training forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; Tame Bill and I ran some FOF drills over the holidays and I thought I would post one. We used mask mounted POV action cameras, ...

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    Member Array rick21's Avatar
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    FOF Tueller Drill

    Tame Bill and I ran some FOF drills over the holidays and I thought I would post one. We used mask mounted POV action cameras, our first try with the cameras. This was the only vid we got that showed the pellets so we slowed it down. This is a 5 yard Tueller drill. From first movement to last shot was less than 3 seconds. I made a couple of mistakes on this drill but overall I'm not unhappy.

    Force on Force Training Drill - Slow Motion - YouTube
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    VIP Member Array shockwave's Avatar
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    Here's a variation on the Tueller Drill you can do with live ammo.

    The lesson is clear: If you know the target is armed, and if you know he or she will charge you, and if your weapon is ready and clear to draw, and if you are at hair-trigger alertness ready to draw and fire at the instant the charge begins, you have a slight chance of getting a shot on the target.

    On the other hand, absent any of the above, your best bet will be to get off the x and look for a chance to draw if you can.
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    Member Array Randy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by shockwave View Post

    The lesson is clear: If you know the target is armed, and if you know he or she will charge you, and if your weapon is ready and clear to draw, and if you are at hair-trigger alertness ready to draw and fire at the instant the charge begins, you have a slight chance of getting a shot on the target.
    Exactly.

    I've done this drill in our intermediate level handgun class with sims for a number of years. Every time we learn pretty much the same thing. A few observations off the top of my head in no particular order...

    Movement perpendicular to the line of attack as soon as you realize you are being attacked gives the best chance of avoiding the knife.

    You cannot move backwards (retreat) faster than someone moving forwards.

    You will often trip and fall down "back peddling" when someone is running at you. I cannot remember a single time when the fallen "shooter" didn't give up the fight. Two lessons learned.

    People rarely make hits on the attacker, much less good hits.

    The "shooter" in the first run of the drill will draw and start firing while turning a circle, following the attacker as he/she passes. The result is that spectators get a sim gun pointed at them and occasionally a lucky one will get shot. (everyone has safety equipment during the exercise) Multiple lessons learned.

    The reality is that an OODA loop or overall failure to realize you are being attacked will prevent you from doing anything before the attacker is on you when the attack happens outside of the designated time for "your turn".

    "Sims hurt" :)

    Randy

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    Interesting on the live fire exercise... The shooter knows it's coming, but not when, except for the tautness of the string and the rattle of the wheels. The shooter has no cover garment, is open carrying, and prepared.

    My thoughts...
    Moving laterally is the best option... moving to the same side as the gun or knife of the perpetrator.

    If a gun, the perp cannot as easily track and shoot away from his body.
    If a knife, he may expose more of the arm holding the knife giving you the option/ability to grab the weapon arm (or stop the weapon with control).
    In either case, the perp is likely to track you with his whole body... arcing towards you as you move laterally, but you are still buying time (through distance, if nothing else).

    The exercises make it obvious that sims or airsoft or paintball are the way to go for more reality and learning than the perp-on-wheels, but the perp-on-wheels teaches you that you must move and shoot or you will get cut/shot. And, perp-on-wheels makes a good case for point shooting and/or "zipping them up" from the draw...
    Rats!
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    I suppose

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    VIP Member Array Harryball's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by rick21 View Post
    Tame Bill and I ran some FOF drills over the holidays and I thought I would post one. We used mask mounted POV action cameras, our first try with the cameras. This was the only vid we got that showed the pellets so we slowed it down. This is a 5 yard Tueller drill. From first movement to last shot was less than 3 seconds. I made a couple of mistakes on this drill but overall I'm not unhappy.

    Force on Force Training Drill - Slow Motion - YouTube
    Nice video. Thanks for sharing...
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    VIP Member Array xXxplosive's Avatar
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    Gotta move laterally of the X or your gonna get hurt............didn't see much of that in the 1st vid. and none in the second.

    We practice with stationary targets at 5 to 7 yds...........we draw and move while firing....1st to the left then to the right....practice both directions is a must.....IMO. Standing stationary is just a quick draw excersise at best.

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    Distinguished Member Array claude clay's Avatar
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    very good exercise showing the well known action beats re-action.
    and the shooter needs to move--the attackers momentum even following his getting shot,
    takes him to you. so don't be there--move laterally and if you can, go to ground.
    should he turn around to charge you again, even if your weapon fails you, you still have your
    rather powerful and long legs to fend him off with and to protect your torso.
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    VIP Member Array xXxplosive's Avatar
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    Timing is everything here.....the "Reactionary Gap"
    I've even seen where... while moving off the X the shooter moves laterally and foward toward the aggressor so he cannot be followed by the assailan with the knife or club...standing still here as depicted in the vids is a sure way to be injured even if your shots are on target.

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    Nice vid, and thanks for posting and thanks to others for their comments.
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    Member Array ISR MATRIX's Avatar
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    This drill is often taken way out of context. It ends up being a raw speed drill to see if you can get your gun out and put rounds on target before the subject reaches you. That is already assuming that you know all the "facts" of the scenario, that a knife armed attacker is rushing you. Ready-Set-Go.... just react!

    Police often use it to justify putting a bullet in someone standing less than 21 feet away with a knife.

    It should not take on meaning any more than that a motivated attacker can cover ground pretty fast and under normal (not hypervigilant) conditions, they already have the drop on you by being the initiator. It's already hard enough under ideal circumstances. Add to that the fact that you still have to recognize the threat. Otherwise you are just shooting someone rushing at you. The last thing you are probably going to see and identify is the weapon on a moving target.
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    August 19, 1970 - June 2012
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    The Tueller Drill is one of those things that has gotten 'beat to fit and painted to match' so many times in the training community that it's used to justify all sorts of things that go in all sort of directions. When Dennis Tueller wrote the article 'How Close Is Too Close?', [in the March 1983 issue of SWAT, I think] he was simply reporting his observations from a recent class that he had helped teach at Gunsite. One stage of the qualification test involved Draw & Fire 2 rounds at 7M in 1.5 seconds. He had a large group, so he divided them into relays. He had the non-shooting group pair up with the shooters on the firing line, facing uprange. On the whistle, they were to run. When they heard their shooter fire, they were to stop. Simple, right? When they did this, Dennis was shocked to discover that all of the runners had covered at least 7M by the time the shooters had fired. In his article, he asks the question; What have we been doing?

    From this, people have been trying to 'solve' the problem of the running knife attacker. There is no such problem. The purpose of the Tueller Drill is to get an understanding of human reaction time and distance across to shooters.

    [Or, I could have just read what Fletch posted. ]
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    Distinguished Member Array claude clay's Avatar
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    Paul, very good observation

    when something is taken out of context and than analyzed as to it being appropriate for something it was never intended to reflect;
    well of course it will come up short and seem to be defective. comparing apples to apples some leeway is allowed; say a red variety to a green one.
    but the closer we stay to red on red, the better the comparison and the truer the results of ones observations.
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    Member Array rick21's Avatar
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    Good Grief. It's just a drill. Kinda thought it was better than standing static and shooting hammers at a piece of cardbord. Guess I was wrong.

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    Thumbs up

    Quote Originally Posted by Paul Gomez View Post
    The Tueller Drill is one of those things that has gotten 'beat to fit and painted to match' so many times in the training community that it's used to justify all sorts of things that go in all sort of directions. When Dennis Tueller wrote the article 'How Close Is Too Close?', [in the March 1983 issue of SWAT, I think] he was simply reporting his observations from a recent class that he had helped teach at Gunsite. One stage of the qualification test involved Draw & Fire 2 rounds at 7M in 1.5 seconds. He had a large group, so he divided them into relays. He had the non-shooting group pair up with the shooters on the firing line, facing uprange. On the whistle, they were to run. When they heard their shooter fire, they were to stop. Simple, right? When they did this, Dennis was shocked to discover that all of the runners had covered at least 7M by the time the shooters had fired. In his article, he asks the question; What have we been doing?

    From this, people have been trying to 'solve' the problem of the running knife attacker. There is no such problem. The purpose of the Tueller Drill is to get an understanding of human reaction time and distance across to shooters.

    [Or, I could have just read what Fletch posted. ]
    But you said it waaaaaaay better!

    I often wondered how training would go if you set up the above drill and every few reps, had the attacker run at the shooter carrying something other than a weapon/ simulated weapon. I think you would see a lot of non lethal threats getting a deadly force response as a conditioned response and as a result you would see a lot more subsequent reps with the shooters getting stabbed, waiting to identify the threat. That's the danger of turning it into a "drill" instead of simply an exercise to make a point. You could chase your tail all day long and not learn much other than "it's tough".
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    August 19, 1970 - June 2012
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    Quote Originally Posted by rick21 View Post
    Good Grief. It's just a drill. Kinda thought it was better than standing static and shooting hammers at a piece of cardbord. Guess I was wrong.
    Rick,

    I'm sorry if we've gone a bit off-topic. You are correct. It is an important thing to do so that you can speak from personnel experience with regards to your understanding of the dynamics of bodies in motion. That is a good thing. It is something that a lot of folks never do. They'd much rather shoot hammers at a piece of cardboard, either because they don't know any better or they fail to comprehend the value is such exercises.

    The danger occurs when people try and take their experiences in a limited scope drill and apply it as a broad spectrum axiom or when they equate 'beating a drill' with something more.

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