Airsoft pistols

Airsoft pistols

This is a discussion on Airsoft pistols within the Defensive Carry & Tactical Training forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; How many people have thought about using or do use airsoft pistols for practicing self defense in your home I have been thinking about this ...

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Thread: Airsoft pistols

  1. #1
    Member Array Jdp751's Avatar
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    Airsoft pistols

    How many people have thought about using or do use airsoft pistols for practicing self defense in your home I have been thinking about this for a while now I think there is a lot to be said about doing this. you can make targets out of cardboard boxes filled with something and putting a bed guy paper target on it. and have a different person in your house place these targets in different locations that you do not know where they are and practice going through your house and doing this in the dark to. And have everybody wearing protection for ther eyes. If you hear a noise at night time and your children are in a different location in your house you would want to make sure they are okay that would mean going through your house during the night. and you could also have your wife practice protecting herself in the bedroom you could where multiple layers of clothing and a full face shields then Wen you enter the bedroom she could practice on a moving target (you) which is quite different than shooting at a still target. And then after you're done shooting taking a close look at the direction of fire at all those missed gunshots ? would they be going through your wall into your children's room or through your window into a neighbors house. Yes you might end up with a couple little marks on your sheet rock in your house but that would be easy to fix. And there are different airsoft pistols some of them have less power than others which would be better suited for in the house. It would be hard to practice like this any other way using airsoft you can see where you are hitting your target or if you are missing your target altogether


  2. #2
    Senior Member Array adric22's Avatar
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    I have done this a few times. I practice mostly with replica BB guns because they not only look like the real thing, but have the right weight and everything of the real firearm. I think some of the airsoft models do too. And I've thought about buying one of them since I could use it indoors. I do have a few airsoft guns, but they are just cheapo guns.

    This is what I'd really like to get ahold of, though:

    Amazon.com: Walther RAM P99 Blue: Sports & Outdoors

    Even better, I'd rather have this:

    Glock 17 T FX | GLOCK USA

    I just wish they had a Glock 19 version.
    "Good people do not need laws to tell them to act responsibly, while bad people will find a way around the laws." -Plato

  3. #3
    Member Array Carnivoire's Avatar
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    I use a PPS and P99 (w/blow back) replica for movement, drawing, sight aquisition and FTF drills - PPS is a spring gun, so I have to rack the slide for second shot - simulates a feed or fail to fire problem.
    Also purchased a gas powered revolver, works SA and DA. BB's load into fake .38 sp brass casings with plasitc tips. Lets my wife and I practice with speed strips and all of the above.

    I have offered to do live drills with the wife n kids (I played gobs of paintball, but not airsoft) - no takers. If you decide to do live fire drills with the familiy, don't forget, a cup is your friend.
    My PPS will probably put a good dent in drywall - 250-280 fps, but the P99 and the revolver we have will penetrate 5-6 layers of cardboard at 12' - badly dented the daylights out of a pine board in my first trap, mounted @ 45.
    At close range, you will break any exposed skin - and add some beauty welts and you get the picture.
    Any BB not absorbed by some sort of back stop will bounce back at the shooter - I have had bouncers go 50' and hit behind me. not much force, but glasses are a must for the shooter as well.

    I like them, have made traps for the BB's. Cost for the equipment and BB's is small. Don't expect to get 1" groups at 15' but in MHO they are great for teaching, especially safety and draw w/o much risk.
    Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what to have for lunch. Liberty is a well-armed lamb contesting the outcome of the vote.
    -Benjamin Franklin

  4. #4
    Distinguished Member Array TSiWRX's Avatar
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    Airsoft replicas (especially "GBB" - (G)as (B)low (B)ack - pistols) are excellent training aids. Over short distances such as within a home (10 yards or so), their performance is near-ballistic, and they cycle and operate much like their true-to-life firearms. Even their overall weight can be very, very similar.

    Be sure that you use good eye protection. I used to game quite a lot, and I've seen airsoft BB's literally "sneak in" behind the lens of shooting glasses, riding that interior curvature, and punch with enough force to bring a grown man down, immediately, to his knees in pain (luckily, it did not damage his eye). I'd favor using a full paintball mask with eye-cup sealing goggles as protection, as I've also seen airsoft BB's chip teeth as well as lacerate ears, lips, and the nostrils at close range. Gloves will protect fingers/hands, which often take the brunt BB-impacts during force-on-force training.

    If you step up to a RAM trainer for force-on-force, groin protection should also be considered mandatory.

    Aside from force-on-force simulations, airsoft can also be considered sub-caliber practice. Tatsuya Sakai of Japan won the 2004 Steel Challenge, going up against the usual big names: he's an avid airsoft shooter, and had only practiced with real-steel firearms for about a month prior to the Challenge competition. Basic weapons safety and manipulation can also be accomplished to differing degrees of success, depending on the exact mechanics of the replica: Travis Haley recently added a YouTube segment on his Haley Strategic Channel, on airsoft training. Force-on-force has definitely been the mainstay of where airsoft has been incorporated into firearms training, with guys like Karl Rehn having led the way since the late-90s, but more and more, it's becoming recognized as a legitimate training tool in a number of ways.

    In addition to the RAM trainers (which I prefer over airsoft as the RAM trainers, with their bigger and more massive projectiles are harder to "miss" in terms of calling a hit, since it generates more pain on the receiving end - not that your training partners would cheat, but honestly, in many instances, airsoft hits simply are not powerful enough to register with many people's perceptions, especially if they're jacked up on adrenaline from the scenario), the SIRT is also a wonderful training tool.

  5. #5
    Distinguished Member Array noway2's Avatar
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    I've been thinking of getting one and setting up a target either in the garage or outside to practice draw from holster, aim, shoot. Still a stationary target but better that shoot from the bench that is allowed at the local range (holster draw not allowed).

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    Senior Member Array adric22's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by noway2 View Post
    I've been thinking of getting one and setting up a target either in the garage or outside to practice draw from holster, aim, shoot. Still a stationary target but better that shoot from the bench that is allowed at the local range (holster draw not allowed).
    Even with stationary targets, there are things you can do to gauge and improve your performance. For example, I'll take a kitchen timer and set it to 5 or 10 minutes. Then I'll start working on my laptop or something, knowing that it is going to go off, but not sure when. So usually the beep will take me by surprise. The idea being, that when the beep goes off, I have to draw from concealment, aim, and fire.

    Quote Originally Posted by TSiWRX
    Airsoft replicas (especially "GBB" - (G)as (B)low (B)ack - pistols) are excellent training aids. Over short distances such as within a home (10 yards or so), their performance is near-ballistic
    I'm not sure I can agree with that. Granted I've always shot airsoft and regular steel BB's outdoors. But my experience is that airsoft has very bad accuracy beyond about 10 to 15 feet. Mostly because the wind will easily cause those little hollow plastic BB's to go off course by as much as 12" by the time they hit the target. Steel BBs are somewhat better, and Pellets (since they use a rifled barrel) are the best. But I've never tried airsoft indoors. it is possible without the wind it may be more accurate there.
    "Good people do not need laws to tell them to act responsibly, while bad people will find a way around the laws." -Plato

  7. #7
    Distinguished Member Array TSiWRX's Avatar
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    I'd encourage anyone looking to purchase airsoft replicas for training to get in-touch with their local/regional airsoft enthusiasts.

    It's a fun sport/hobby, and it's now quite popular throughout the US.

    Post-up to their Forums asking for advice on where to puchase, locally, the airsoft replicas that are good enough for you to do what you need to do, in terms of the training you desire. Purchasing from one of the established overseas retailers has historically proven to be problem-free and hassle-free, but for those of you for whom this is a one-time-purchase, it just might be easier to do it locally.

    The reason why I say "good enough for you to do what you need to do, in your training," is because airsoft replicas vary greatly in terms of price and quality - and functionality.

    A $15 spring-powered, single-shot replica from the local Wal-Mart may well be good enough for you, if all you're going to do is work on the very fundamentals of sight picture and trigger control and don't mind the need to rack the slide every time, but it will fail miserably when it comes to force-on-force simulations, where multiple follow-up shots may be necessary or required. Similarly, issues of accuracy of function (i.e. "manual of arms") as well as the durability of certain components, such as the magazines, can also be a concern.

    For example, I've got some Glock replicas that are in the $300 range (that's in yesteryear's purchase prices: today, you can get the same, for about $125, IIRC), that are wonderful at what one would need, for force-on-force training or for manipulations, but you wouldn't want to drop the magazine onto the ground, since that's where they store their propellant gas, and any damage to the housing would mean that they're going to leak....

    It's a training tool, just like any other, and it will have shortcomings and areas where it will excel. Choose your tools wisely, and you'll stand to benefit a lot!

  8. #8
    Distinguished Member Array TSiWRX's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by adric22 View Post
    I'm not sure I can agree with that. Granted I've always shot airsoft and regular steel BB's outdoors. But my experience is that airsoft has very bad accuracy beyond about 10 to 15 feet. Mostly because the wind will easily cause those little hollow plastic BB's to go off course by as much as 12" by the time they hit the target. Steel BBs are somewhat better, and Pellets (since they use a rifled barrel) are the best. But I've never tried airsoft indoors. it is possible without the wind it may be more accurate there.
    You're both right and wrong.

    Yes, the external ballistics of the heavier and smaller steel/metallic BBs are better - that's why when you start looking at various high-end airsoft replicas that are *NOT* intended for skirmish/gaming use (i.e. where you're NOT shooting at another person), metallic BBs are used, and the replicas' "power" increases concomitantly. Physics is physics.

    But if your airsoft replicas are crapping out after just 10 to 15 feet, that's more indicative that you've got some really crappy airsoft replicas, rather than the limitations of the system having been reached.

    Look at it this way: BB-IPSC typically occur at ranges between 4 to 7 meters/yards, but smaller targets are used. Similarly, outdoor airsoft gaming - "MilSim" - usually see engagement distances occur between 10 to 20 yards, with "snipers" capable of easily reaching 100+ ft. (with rifle replicas that come in at between 1.5 to 2J of muzzle energy), all using standard 6mm plastic BBs.

    More concretely:

    http://www.ammoman.com/graphics/IDPA-Target.jpg

    ^ Using Ammoman.com's IDPA target, scaled-down to fit an 8 and 1/2 by 11 piece of paper so that the center ring is about 2 and 1/2 inches in diameter, with a quality GBB replica, you should be looking at all rounds hitting well within that zone at 15 feet (most quality GBB replicas should group, off-hand, between 1.5 to 2 inches, at that distance). Even a fully-auto Glock 18 replica easily magazine-dumped within a 3-inch diameter, at that range.

    By comparison, my old BB-IPSC "Open Class" gun, with a 3.5 MOA DOCTERsight on top, punches a single hole 0.6-inch by 0.3-inch 6-shot grouping, shot off-hand, at that range.

  9. #9
    Member Array luke213's Avatar
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    Agreed they can be a good training aid but there is a huge difference between cheap airsoft guns and good ones. When in doubt get ahold of a local group and check out their gear. Years ago I used to play allot just as a hobby and still have most of my guns and gear. My gas blowback 1911 matches my carry 1911 pretty much to a T and with that in the holster and a few backup mags I can do allot of things that are harder to do safely with live fire. The other advantage is where you can use them, no real need for backstop etc. Either way if your interested take the time to learn about the different guns out there and what will work best for you.

    Take care!

    Luke

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  10. #10
    Distinguished Member Array Lotus222's Avatar
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    Sure, they can be a great indoor training tool. Pretty fun, as well.

    For accuracy in the backyard, I have found that a CO2 powered pellet handgun is the best tool for practicing cheaply and quietly. I have purchased very nice, mostly metal, airsoft replica guns before. They are fun, but the pellet trajectory and speed are just way way too far off to be of much value.

    I wish I had more land, so I could shoot .22 all day... Oh, well.

  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by adric22 View Post
    Even better, I'd rather have this:

    Glock 17 T FX | GLOCK USA

    I just wish they had a Glock 19 version.
    There are FX (and UTM) "adaptor kits" for the G19, as well as for numberous other pistols and rifles. The downsides are very expensive ammunition, too much power to use in your house (things WILL get broken, walls will be damaged, etc), and the fact that the ammo is generally only sold to MIL/LE agencies. That said, they are extremely realistic training aids, and are extremely valuable if you are able to use them.
    A man fires a rifle for many years, and he goes to war. And afterward he turns the rifle in at the armory, and he believes he's finished with the rifle. But no matter what else he might do with his hands - love a woman, build a house, change his son's diaper - his hands remember the rifle.

  12. #12
    Guest Array Guest1's Avatar
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    When I do a defensive handgun 3 class,these are part of our training,they work great on stairwells,corners,blind spots,I absolutely love these for training,great on the Tueller drill,but remember nothing is a substitute for your range time!

  13. #13
    Distinguished Member Array TSiWRX's Avatar
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    ^ Exactly. It's just another tool, another training aid, and like any other, it has both its strengths as well as weaknesses. It can only do so much.


    ------


    Quote Originally Posted by Lotus222 View Post
    Sure, they can be a great indoor training tool. Pretty fun, as well.

    For accuracy in the backyard, I have found that a CO2 powered pellet handgun is the best tool for practicing cheaply and quietly. I have purchased very nice, mostly metal, airsoft replica guns before. They are fun, but the pellet trajectory and speed are just way way too far off to be of much value.

    I wish I had more land, so I could shoot .22 all day... Oh, well.
    There are now very close-to-real-life CO2-powered "airsoft," such as the S&W M&Ps, in .177 caliber. Not as widespread in terms of platforms, as true airsoft (particularly if you're willing to go overseas or source from higher-end retailers) - nor quite as usable in terms of force-on-force - but yes, for longer distances, their "ballistics" will be superior.

    Again, though, if you're looking at distances within the usually rehearsed FoF scenarios - 10 yards and below - if your airsoft GBB pistol isn't reaching out accurately ("combat accuracy," with both you and the target on the move, should be the same as any pistol at that range - easily an 8 and 1/2 by 11 piece of paper; off-hand, slow-fire, you should easily group within 5 inches) then it's because you haven't purchased a replica that's really capable of being used in that role.

    The former is a bit under the distance from my kitchen window to the security-company sign at the corner of my garage, and the latter compares well to the yard ornament just to the side of it: I was able to easily pick at those, through my kitchen window, with my 12+ year-old Western Arms HiCap CQB Special. Using this same GBB - which isn't my most accurate, by far, since the heavyweight slide incurs sufficient "recoil" to throw things off - I can easily obtain a 4-inch group at 5 yards, dumping the entire magazine of 30 BBs as fast as I can pull the trigger.

    Also, remember, although a "metal" slide or frame will often portend better overall durability, this isn't exactly a guaranty, since in the far-east, these "metal" components are often what we here in the States would call "pot metal." Additionally, oftentimes, such metal components are given to lower-to-mid-grade replicas as package-sold options so as to increase their appeal, particularly to Westerners. A high-grade replica using polymer plastics can often easily match the durability of a "metal" low/mid-grade replica, and can often produce matching levels of performance using gasses that are less pressurized (i.e. that their systems are more efficient): their tighter tolerances and better components can also translate to significantly better precision, accuracy, and consistency

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