fist first ?

This is a discussion on fist first ? within the Defensive Carry & Tactical Training forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; Does anyone use the fist first technique, I think they call it reverse weaver? I've been trained in the weaver and have since practiced weaver ...

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Thread: fist first ?

  1. #1
    Member Array wingchun's Avatar
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    fist first ?

    Does anyone use the fist first technique, I think they call it reverse weaver? I've been trained in the weaver and have since practiced weaver and modified weaver. This seems to work well for me, I can shoot a good aimed shot or shoot close range without using the sights and get good hits fast. The weaver seems to work good for cq, keeping the pistol close to the body and easy to move and be mobile. Sticking the pistol way out in front, like the reverse weaver seems good for shooting sports but not for real life. However, the fist first looks like it offers very good control and fast follow up shots. I look at it like Jeet Kune Do of the pistol, use what works dicard the rest. A little of each theory could fit many circumstances. "Water can flow, or it can crash , be like water my friend."

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    Member Array Go Glock's Avatar
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    For me the weaver stance came most naturally compared to other stances; I think it had to do with growing up shooting rifles. However, I was talking to an LEO and he said they don't prefer to teach that stance. They teach officers to face the target so as not to expose side cavities where body armor does not cover. They prefer the Isosceles stance.

    I can pretty well assume most of us don't wear body armor and the weaver does reduce our target patter, but I say just do whats natural because when the SHTF you won't remember anything about your stance...IMO.
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    weaver for me too.
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    VIP Member Array swiftyjuan's Avatar
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    yep, weaver for me too.
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    VIP Member Array ccw9mm's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by wingchun View Post
    Does anyone use the fist first technique, I think they call it reverse weaver?
    I'm somewhere between a modified Weaver and isosceles. Found that, for me, Weaver's fine on a range, but that iso works better with moving targets for better acquistion.
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    It's Fist Fire, not Fist First. I went to the school for six days, it didn't do a lot for me. Others thinks it helps a lot.

    It is in fact, a reverse Weaver stance. By the time I went there I was quite comfortable with the Weaver and still am.

    I went to Blackwater last May and they teach the I stance. I did no better with it than with a Weaver. One interesting thing did happen. After the instructor had talked about how the I was more instinctive, more natural, etc. he had us in a pressure/stress drill. And after four days of shooting nothing but I stance, when I got under stress, I went to a Weaver stance. The instructor brought it to my attention.

    I still don't know which is better for me.

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    Member Array Blackhawk6's Avatar
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    Given the title and the original poster, I thought this was going to be a H2H thread.

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    Member Array gotammo's Avatar
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    +1 weaver

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    Member Array wingchun's Avatar
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    my bad, fist, fire, thats what I meant.
    Tangle, I'm jealous. I wish I had the time and money to study more at places like blackwater. With the fist fire method I do like rotating the support elbow up, it seems to give a nice high grip on the gun for fast follow up shots. Weaver does seem much more natural and presents a smaller target.

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    Member Array wingchun's Avatar
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    I forgot,sorry. Support hand thumb on top or under strong hand thumb grip?

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    Quote Originally Posted by wingchun View Post
    I forgot,sorry. Support hand thumb on top or under strong hand thumb grip?
    It varies depending on who you talk to and their background. Revolver shooters tend to use the shooting hand thumb under the support hand thumb. So, when they transition to semis, they typically keep the same grip.

    It seems that the present dogma is the shooting hand thumb over the support hand thumb. In the case for a 1911, the thumb rides the thumb safety, purportedly to eliminate any chance of the safety getting bumped on inadvertantly.

    The top guns, i.e. the best IDPA and IPSC competition shooters, just about all shoot from an 'I' stance and grip the gun with the shooting hand thumb pointing forward over the top of the support hand thumb. The support hand wrist is rolled really forward with the support hand thumb pointing forward. This is all done to maximize grip contact with the gun and reduce recoil.

    I can tell little difference shooting from a Weaver or I stance but I have a lot more range time with the Weaver. Plus, not all competition methods translate to the street effectively. For example, the 'I' stance has a very weak retention position, where the Weaver has a very powerful retention position.

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    +1 weaver

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    Distinguished Member Array AutoFan's Avatar
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    Due to spending a lot of years in martial arts before I ever started shooting handguns, I drop into a fighting stance when startled, which is very similar to a Weaver stance. I shoot from what resembles a fighting/Weaver stance.

    (As an aside, I have a picture of a friend in a fighting stance when we threw him a surprise birthday party.)

    What exactly is a "fist fire" stance?

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    Quote Originally Posted by AutoFan View Post
    Due to spending a lot of years in martial arts before I ever started shooting handguns, I drop into a fighting stance when startled, which is very similar to a Weaver stance. I shoot from what resembles a fighting/Weaver stance.
    Seems like this came up when I was at Blackwater. My instructor mumbled something about most martial artists these days 'square off' to their opponents, meaning, by the context of the conversation, the bladed stance you mentioned, isn't used much any more. Well, that was news to me, but I'm not a martial artist, so I couldn't respond to his claim, but I did notice that he moved on rather quickly to another subject.

    Quote Originally Posted by AutoFan View Post
    (As an aside, I have a picture of a friend in a fighting stance when we threw him a surprise birthday party.)
    Now that's great! It's always good to hear a guy reverts to his training when surprised and startled!

    Quote Originally Posted by AutoFan View Post
    What exactly is a "fist fire" stance?
    Wow! How quickly I forget. I remember the arm and grip well, but I can't for the life of me remember the foot position. Anyway the arm/grip is essentially a reverse Weaver. I.e., the support arm is straight, the shooting arm is bent, hence it looks like a Weaver in reverse. I just can't remember if the body is bladed or not. The grip (hands) is the same as the Weaver.

    The interesting thing was, when I was at the Fistfire school, is that the school teaches point shooting and it was extremely important and emphasized by the instructors, to keep the support arm elbow locked. It made a difference in accuracy.

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    Member Array wingchun's Avatar
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    Auto Fan, I've found that I also drop into a fighting stance. It feels natural, strong , balanced , mobile and if you must push your target away or have some physical contact short of shooting someone your already ready . It means your martial arts training did what it was meant to do. Every real fight that I've been in and even in the ring or on the mat I pretty much go into auto pilot. Your training is ment to develop muscle memory and reflex instincts. Most fighting stances make a very stable shooting platform and are very fluid in movement.

    I do mostly use the weaver, this may be from years of wing chun study as it is very close in fighting. I can't really see pushing the gun way out in front of me, like was brought up, your presenting your gun for someone to grab.

    My grip is always support thumb under my firing thumb. Points better
    and follow up shots are real fast.

    Sounds like we're all on the right path.

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