This is a discussion on Define Competent within the Defensive Carry & Tactical Training forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; What level of skill would you expect the average person with a concealed carry permit to exhibit in order for you to consider them competent? ...
August 24th, 2006 10:15 PM
What level of skill would you expect the average person with a concealed carry permit to exhibit in order for you to consider them competent? (An understanding of how their firearm operates and firearm safety is a given.)
Limit your course of fire to 50 rounds or less. Be sure to specify the target type, distance, time and accuracy standards. (Do not forget the revolver shooters.)
August 24th, 2006 11:54 PM
25 rounds 75% COM
Standard police style target.
21' with 2 minute time limit.
August 24th, 2006 11:55 PM
Ask your range master / safety officer if he is ok with you doing this drill before you start.
Time starts when you count off your last push up (you'll need someone to time you).
No gear can fall during the running / jumping jacks / pushups / shooting. If you can't do the running / jumping jacks / pushups for medical reasons, do at least 1 minute of a low-impact exercises to get your blood flowing before turning around and engaging the target.
Target will be "scenario" type (BG with and/or without weapon / LE / old lady / pregnant woman / etc), human torso size, in color. Buddy (or ask range master) will put up your target so you have no clue as to what you will shoot at until after you ID your target.
During darkness / low light, at 7 yards, with your choice of handgun and holster, facing away from the target, after doing 20 seconds of "running in place", followed by 10 jumping jacks, then 10 pushups (counting them out loud so time keeper can start the crono after you are done with the 10th one), stand, turn around, pull a flashlight of your choice from concealment , ID the target and backstop, and if target is a threat with good backstop, draw from concealment and hit target 2 times COM and 1 to the head (failure drill) in under 6 seconds.
Probably asking for too much, but that's what I would consider someone competent. If you can do this drill in under 4 seconds, "you the man".
August 25th, 2006 01:13 AM
I agree with IDing your backstop... but people need to realize that you MAY have to take the shot with bystanders or even friendlies behind your target.
Knowing your target and what's behind it is important, accepting the risk of taking the shot under less than ideal conditions may be equally important.
"I am a Soldier. I fight where I am told, and I win where I fight." GEN George S. Patton, Jr.
August 25th, 2006 03:34 AM
I have no honest expectations of any "average" person to have any waking cognizance, let alone skill or competence. Though, it's my fervent hope the top 10% can lay some claim (at some future point) to a measure of competence. God help the rest.
Originally Posted by Blackhawk6
To my way of thinking, non LEO/trainer that I am, a "reality course" on the range requires a few elements to be a decent indicator:
... with a concealed carry permit to exhibit in order for you to consider them competent?
- Ability to navigate a field of moving targets consistently and reliably across about 30 seconds.
- Ability to hit every target with every round within a handspan at 7yds or two handspans at 10yds. (Avoidance of striking the proverbial three-year-old child in the background being the goal, 100% of the time.)
- Ability to decide correctly on 100% of choices the proper target to hit, when a moving field contains alternating BG's and GG's.
- Involve at least three tactical reloads during the course.
- Involve at least one change of shooting position to something other than standing/Weaver/isosceles.
The way I view it, a good and realistic practical exam means everything. The above guidelines seemed to be the sort that the IPSC course designers in my area preferred, some years ago. Some fairly well laid out courses were created that, I thought, created a series of challenges that could be quickly met with by a reasonably skilled and competent person, as well as quickly identify weaknesses in a marginal combat shooter.
Basic target combos:
- A pair (or more) of single 5" diam. bullseye targets, at 7yds, that flip away after 4-5 seconds of display. Required accuracy: both targets struck with two bullets, with one allowed on the "fringe" of the target, with zero completely off the target.
- At least a couple instances of the following ... A pair of human figure targets, at 10yds, with 8-10" target fields, that turn and move across the field of vision, consisting of a BG and a GG. Required accuracy: BG struck center of mass with three bullets, with one allowed on the "fringe" of the target, with zero completely off the target; completed prior to targets moving out of field of vision (< 5-7secs).
- At least a couple instances of the following ... Two or three stationary BG/GG combo targets, with 8-10" fields, at varying distances between 5-15yds, to simulate BG's giving orders/demands and needing quick decision-making by the shooter. Required accuracy: BG struck with two bullets, with zero off-target hits allowed (given the GG), completed within 5sec for two targets or 8sec for three targets.
- At least one instance of firing behind a stationary object (wall, "tree") to hit a pair of stationary 5" bullseye targets at 7-10yds. Required accuracy: two bullets on target, no penalty for off-target misses; complete within 5sec per target.
- At least one instance of firing behind a low, stationary, oddball object (such as a "car", a "rock" or mere "hump of dirt" between the shooter and the BG) that requires kneeling or getting onto the ground to fire. Targets are of the moving variety, ideally angling rapidly toward the shooter. Required accuracy: three bullets in center of mass on each of two advancing targets, with 10" fields, prior to targets reaching 5yds distance from the shooter (~8secs for both targets to complete their advancing).
It's been awhile since I reviewed those early courses, so I can't recall any more specifics, in terms of the number of shots or timing. At one range, it was nicely laid out with a wide variety of moving targets in the field of shooting. The above combinations definitely stressed many aspects of competence: composure, physical movement, use of cover, accuracy, speed. The time elements attempted to force real decision making on the shooter. The mixed target selection demanded correct decision making ability and composure. The physical movement and varying shooting positions simulated a changing landscape (as the BG moved, as cars/walls/rocks were used as cover).
I learned far more on this sort of simulation field than at any other time. Beats the heck out of simple target plinking, for driving home the skills needed. You are forced to realize early on that the proverbial three-year-old child in the background is a very real thing, when considering that a defensive shoot can occur in a business, in a parking lot, on a city street. Very stressful, such tests; but I found them to be fairly effective at finding my faults, stress points.
Your best weapon is your brain. Don't leave home without it.
self defense (A.O.J.).
How does disarming
the number of victims?
Reason over Force: The Gun is Civilization (Marko Kloos)
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August 25th, 2006 12:57 PM
Competant in 50 rounds, or showing their level of competance within a 50 rd course?
What I expect and what I'll get from the average ccw is worlds apart.
The mind is the limiting factor
Quick Kill Rifle and Pistol Instructor
August 25th, 2006 01:21 PM
Originally Posted by AzQkr
August 25th, 2006 02:22 PM
With 6 rds, two rounds each string at 6 feet:
Draw from concealed and fire at the command, two rounds from the hip in under 1.5 seconds into an 8 inch COM.
With 6 rds, two rounds each string at 10 feet:
Draw from concealed and fire at the command, two rounds from the hip as soon as the gun is out of the holster in under 1.5 seconds into an 8 inch COM.
With 4 rds, two rounds each on two threats performed twice at 6 feet:
Draw from concealed and fire at the command, two rounds from the hip as soon as the gun is out of the holster in under 2.0 seconds into an 8 inch COM on both targets.
With 4 rds, two rounds each on two threats performed twice at 10 feet:
Draw from concealed and fire at the command, two rounds from the hip in under 2.0 seconds into an 8 inch COM on both targets.
With 4 rds, 2 rds each string performed twice on one target at 15 feet.
Draw from concealed and fire at the command, 2 rds COM into no bigger than a 6 inch grouping in under 2.0 seconds.
With 8 rds, 2 rds each string performed twice on two targets at 15 feet.
Draw from concealed and fire at the command, 2 rds COM into no bigger than a 6 inch grouping in under 2.5 seconds for both targets.
With 6 rounds, gun in hand, no time limit at 30 feet, keep all rds inside a 2 inch group.
Thats 50 rds. It gives me an indication they can draw and defend proficiently under SD conditions most likely found on the street, and the last 6 show me they understand handhold, trigger control and sight alignment.
The mind is the limiting factor
Quick Kill Rifle and Pistol Instructor
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