Training and Practicing Close Quarter/Firearm Retention From Home - Page 2

Training and Practicing Close Quarter/Firearm Retention From Home

This is a discussion on Training and Practicing Close Quarter/Firearm Retention From Home within the Defensive Carry & Tactical Training forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; I usually use a BOB, or heavy stand bag. I suggest distance and shoot, or disarm and then distance and shoot. I have had training ...

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Thread: Training and Practicing Close Quarter/Firearm Retention From Home

  1. #16
    Member Array killam1357's Avatar
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    I usually use a BOB, or heavy stand bag. I suggest distance and shoot, or disarm and then distance and shoot. I have had training so keep that in mind.

    If you want a live opponent cold steel sells rubber knifes, and find a training gun or run snap caps. ALWAYS check for NO LIVE AMMO!! Have a buddy or your significant other attack you in a training session. The more people you train against the better prepared you are, you don't get used to the cadence and attack styles. If you get into a karate school ask to train on disarming drills.

    The unexpected situations are pretty hard to train for but going to the range, curling up and shooting from there are actually good ideas that I may start to include now. Thanks

    So vis pacem, para bellum
    Si vis pacem, para bellum


  2. #17
    Member Array AOK's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by killam1357 View Post
    I usually use a BOB, or heavy stand bag. I suggest distance and shoot, or disarm and then distance and shoot. I have had training so keep that in mind.

    If you want a live opponent cold steel sells rubber knifes, and find a training gun or run snap caps. ALWAYS check for NO LIVE AMMO!! Have a buddy or your significant other attack you in a training session. The more people you train against the better prepared you are, you don't get used to the cadence and attack styles. If you get into a karate school ask to train on disarming drills.

    The unexpected situations are pretty hard to train for but going to the range, curling up and shooting from there are actually good ideas that I may start to include now. Thanks

    So vis pacem, para bellum
    BOB's are great for training. I want to get one eventually.

    I'll work on transitioning from the #2/3/4 of the draw stroke as I move around after striking the heavy bag.

    Training against others is great if you can find someone. I go to KM a few days a week and we work on weapon disarment from handguns, long guns, knives, bats, and garrote. All great stuff to learn but it takes a lot of practice and training to become efficient and to understand all the complexities involved with someone else fighting back. I actually practice handgun disarming this the stuffed torso I mentioned in the original post. It can't replace having an actually person resisting and fighting back but it does help in a variety of different ways.

  3. #18
    VIP Member Array Harryball's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eaglebeak View Post
    To help Kelcarry with a quickie example of my two shoots, neither one was a two-handed shot from "proper firing position".

    The first was while my partner and I had split up to do a routine check of a dilapidated abandoned old house where neighbors had reported kids playing around in. When I entered the back door into a tiny junk filled kitchen, I heard a little rustling sound from the next room. Just as I put my hand on my service revolver and said "police" (in case it was a kid or my partner), a large adult male stepped into the doorway of the adjoining room while raising a big revolver toward me. Startled, I instinctivley spun sideways to minimize my profile, pulled, and got off a one-handed point-shoot from my side that hit him just above the right eyebrow - which caused a reflex action firing of his .357 into the Zippo lighter in my pant's pocket (very nasty shrapnel wounds in leg and lower abdomen from hollow-point and Zippo fragments). If I had been a split second later in taking a sighted aim, his pistol would have raised to my center mass when it discharged instead of my upper leg.

    Second was during a domestic between a male and female loaded up on meth. After breaking up the male's knife attack on the female, he turned on my partner who began emptying his .357 at center mass witn no real effect; at the same time, I was jumped by the wounded female who knocked my service revolver out of my hand (sending it slidng across the room) and we both went down in a wrestling match. I managed to give her an elbow while we were balled up on the floor, pulled my Mustang .380 BUG from an ankle holster and got off a miraculous shot to his temple while my partner was frozen-up with an empty gun (I truly think God had a hand in that shot).

    I don't recommend anyone subjecting themselves to laughter at the firing range by practicing a close-range draw and point-shoot from an ankle holster while balled up on their back with knees under their chin - but that is most certianly one of those "real world" totally unplanned scenarios.
    Eaglebeak thanks for sharing. These to incidents you described is exactly why we train the way we do..You just never know when its going to hit the fan.
    Don"t let stupid be your skill set....

    Never be ashamed of a scar. It simply means, that you were stronger than whatever tried to hurt you......

  4. #19
    Ex Member Array ScottM's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kelcarry View Post
    Could it be that if you spend more time on SA, including preplanning that eliminates many who, what, where, when possible bad scenarios, instead of close quarter/retention, you might be better of--after all if you never put yourself in a situation, you do not have to train for that situation. I am 70 and I know no one who has ever been in any kind of situation that even required a firearm and close quarter/retention situations.
    Situational awareness is great, and something to work toward.

    But NO ONE can be switched on 24/7/365. Reality just has a way of interfering sometimes.

    Your wife and/or kids never distract you? You never get sick? You never let anyone get inside your comfort zone on the street or in the store?

    Thankfully, street gunfights for citizens rarely occur as it is. That you or your friends have never needed these tactics is not an indicator they are invalid.

  5. #20
    Distinguished Member Array kelcarry's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eaglebeak View Post
    To help Kelcarry with a quickie example of my two shoots, neither one was a two-handed shot from "proper firing position".

    The first was while my partner and I had split up to do a routine check of a dilapidated abandoned old house where neighbors had reported kids playing around in. When I entered the back door into a tiny junk filled kitchen, I heard a little rustling sound from the next room. Just as I put my hand on my service revolver and said "police" (in case it was a kid or my partner), a large adult male stepped into the doorway of the adjoining room while raising a big revolver toward me. Startled, I instinctivley spun sideways to minimize my profile, pulled, and got off a one-handed point-shoot from my side that hit him just above the right eyebrow - which caused a reflex action firing of his .357 into the Zippo lighter in my pant's pocket (very nasty shrapnel wounds in leg and lower abdomen from hollow-point and Zippo fragments). If I had been a split second later in taking a sighted aim, his pistol would have raised to my center mass when it discharged instead of my upper leg.

    Second was during a domestic between a male and female loaded up on meth. After breaking up the male's knife attack on the female, he turned on my partner who began emptying his .357 at center mass witn no real effect; at the same time, I was jumped by the wounded female who knocked my service revolver out of my hand (sending it slidng across the room) and we both went down in a wrestling match. I managed to give her an elbow while we were balled up on the floor, pulled my Mustang .380 BUG from an ankle holster and got off a miraculous shot to his temple while my partner was frozen-up with an empty gun (I truly think God had a hand in that shot).

    I don't recommend anyone subjecting themselves to laughter at the firing range by practicing a close-range draw and point-shoot from an ankle holster while balled up on their back with knees under their chin - but that is most certianly one of those "real world" totally unplanned scenarios.
    Methinks we are talking apples and oranges here. I assume from your scenarios we are talking LEO talk here and not everyday forum members and certainly not 70 year olds like myself who have never had a partner in a dilapidated building or a domestic disturbance. My comment is more the "between the lines" feeling I have that because others have not trained to the extent that you or others have, we somehow are dumb fools playing a game with our firearms. I fully believe that I have enough common sense to utilize SA to its maximum and will never be in a dilapidated building or in the middle of a domestic disturbance or anything that remotely puts me in a position where I will be thinking about the lack of experience and training discussed in this initial thread. Maybe this thread is for LEOs and others who are constantly involved in such situations. As I said, I do not intend and am SA aware enough to have never ever been in any situation requiring even a thought of my firearm. Quite frankly I purchased a firearm and have a CCWP primarily to defend myself against a federal assault on my freedoms as long as we have a communist dictator wannabe in the whitehouse--someone comes aknocking at my door, they will go to hell before I go to heaven and, unlike jewish relatives in germany 1930, I will not be a sheep and pack my clothes for a trip to a camp or be subjected to an assault by the this moslem creep's citizen brownshirts. I believe it can happen in this country and I am prepared to be one of many to stop it from happening.

  6. #21
    Member Array killam1357's Avatar
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    I did not get LEO only from this and I believe that you are completely justified in your CCW wants. The situations LEO face are inherently different than us citizen members. Everyone carries for their own reasons, and those that train to pass the test and those of us that train for the rest of our lives are both correct.

    I think and believe everyone wants something different out of CCWL and each to their own.


    So vis pacem, para bellum
    Si vis pacem, para bellum

  7. #22
    Distinguished Member Array kelcarry's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by killam1357 View Post
    I did not get LEO only from this and I believe that you are completely justified in your CCW wants. The situations LEO face are inherently different than us citizen members. Everyone carries for their own reasons, and those that train to pass the test and those of us that train for the rest of our lives are both correct.

    I think and believe everyone wants something different out of CCWL and each to their own.
    So vis pacem, para bellum
    Exactly correct and well said. If I have misinterpreted the tone of this thread, I am sorry. I did feel that there was a "holier than thou" to this thread that I felt should be addressed. It has happened before and it will continue to happen with the written word, which can easily be misinterpreted. Just because it has been written does not necessarily make it right. that goes for all of us and myself included. I just felt like stating my opinion and accept its consequences, whether in agreement or disagreement.

  8. #23
    Member Array AOK's Avatar
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    kelcarry-

    I understand where you are coming from and respect your point of view. Situational awareness (and will) trumps all, without a doubt. Being able to avoid bad places, notice erratic behavior, understand tells that an attack is about to happen, being able to talk properly and position your body properly, etc. With all that said, just because you don't go looking for trouble doesn't mean trouble won't come looking for you.

    The reason I practice close contact distances is for various reasons. One of them being statistics compiled by the FBI. They did a study on LE deaths from firearms broken down into the the distance between the assailant and LEO from 1991-2000. 50% of deaths occurred within 5' and 71% of deaths were from inside 10'. Mind you many of these LEO's have had more training than an average concealed weapons holder that only meets state requirements. So if LE is finding most of their deaths involving firearms are inside 10' why would it be any different for concealed firearm carriers?

    I do not frown upon or think I am all high and mighty at all. I do believe that having a firearm and being able to shoot a bullseye with you and the target static can produce a false sense of security. I'm not insulting you or saying you are in this category at all. Some just think having the firearm and being able to hit what you are aiming at make them prepared for more than what they really are. Reality is we only know what we know. If we haven't done much studying or taking self defense classes beyond a basic course we really don't know how unprepared we are. I used to think I was pretty well set because I could hit what I was aiming at. I took my first class beyond state requirements and quickly found out how little I knew when it came to fighting with a gun and keeping it up and running. It was an ego check in a hurry as it is for many.
    Last edited by AOK; February 18th, 2012 at 11:55 PM.

  9. #24
    VIP Member Array Harryball's Avatar
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    The view points on both sides of this discussion are valid. However, those in the camp, that say Im not a leo or im to this or im to that, IMO you are limiting yourself. Weapons manipulations are not tactics. You should be well versed in all manipulations of your carry weapon. Its not about being super man, its about giving yourself the chance to win and come out on top.....If it ever happens...
    Don"t let stupid be your skill set....

    Never be ashamed of a scar. It simply means, that you were stronger than whatever tried to hurt you......

  10. #25
    Member Array Speculator's Avatar
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    Triple check your firearm to make sure it's unloaded (or use a blue gun). Put your gun in its usual location, BUG, if any, in its holster/pocket whatever. Now, lie down on the floor and have your partner get on top of you. Have them trap your draw arm with their knees against your body, OR, have them get wrist control, two hands on one (your strong arm). NOW, using ONLY leverage, get your firearm deployed.

    You can make it simpler, or more complicated. Give them a rounded-ended broom handle section, or a rubber knife, the length of a kitchen knife, and YOU get double wrist control, (still on bottom). Disarm them or trap their arm and deploy your blue gun.

    Do as many variations on this as you can, ALWAYS using gentle leverage type moves (slow rolling we call it in Brazilian Ju-Jitsu), and see how hard/easy it is to deploy your firearm or BUG. When you deploy, re-holster and start again.

    You are simulating the very common position of being on the ground, the BG on top of you. ALSO, try it standing up against a wall (just turn the drill 90 degrees from lying with the floor at your back to standing or kneeling, the wall at your back). Against a wall is also common, you are limited in mobility intentionally for the drill. Start out with the 'bad guy' having double wrist control and pressing you against the wall with his body weight. (NO striking at this point).

    Work these until you are proficient, ALWAYS emphasizing leverage and NOT strength (thus you can practice with your wife or female partner). Though there are lots of other CQ drills and positions, these are very common and can be generalize.

    It teaches you where it's a good idea to carry, it teaches the weaknesses of a some carries (4-5:00 waist is very hard to access from on your back). It teaches you how to fight to free your arm, how to access your ankle BUG, which leg to wear it on, etc.

    As you get better and if your partner can hang in there, you can go harder, use a little more strength, even let him start to access your weapon as you start with double wrist control, you still on the bottom. Later, you can start out on top, being aware that the guy on bottom can pull the gun out of your grip, having two arms and two legs to your one arm (one is balance, one is deploy arm).

    Some of the positions you want to try and get:
    o A sweep (where you lever with your legs and flip him over, you end up on top)
    o Knees up, or one knee up and between you and the bad guy
    o Rolling over to get on your knees, head down but draw arm free.
    o Rolling to the side, then rapidly roll to the other side (draw side up) and free your firearm to deploy.

    In a real-fight situation you have a highly chaotic event, but if you practice these moves above, you will suddenly find yourself in a position that you practiced and your reflexes will take over. You may find that in a real-fight situation the best you can do is put the muzzle of your gun up against his leg or knee or hand. Take the shot - it will get him flinching and off of you for a CoM shot.

    Just some ideas. Again, be very careful, triple-check, use a blue gun and a rubber knife.

  11. #26
    Ex Member Array ScottM's Avatar
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    Face the facts: Most people will not practice any of these drills, even hardcore CCW's.

    Rolling around on the ground with a rubber knife or getting Airsoft pox just isn't as sexy as shooting tight groups at 7yds from a tight Weaver stance.

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