Training and Practicing Close Quarter/Firearm Retention From Home

Training and Practicing Close Quarter/Firearm Retention From Home

This is a discussion on Training and Practicing Close Quarter/Firearm Retention From Home within the Defensive Carry & Tactical Training forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; Many people that go shooting for self defense purposes don't have the ability to practice or train shooting from retention or other close quarter techniques. ...

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Thread: Training and Practicing Close Quarter/Firearm Retention From Home

  1. #1
    Member Array AOK's Avatar
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    Training and Practicing Close Quarter/Firearm Retention From Home

    Many people that go shooting for self defense purposes don't have the ability to practice or train shooting from retention or other close quarter techniques. Even if you do have an opportunity to shoot at the range from retention is that alone enough? Force-on-force classes, retention classes and the like are invaluable but how do you work on what you have learned outside of classes? Some of us are lucky enough to have a range that allows us to shoot from retention and move around, but can you REALISTICALLY snap a strike out to your target which is likely just a piece of paper with possibly a thin piece of plywood or cardboard backer? The reason I emphasize REALISTICALLY is because I'm guessing most students that have done some force-on-force training understand the type of force it can take to create space between you and a realistic attacker trying to hurt you or get your gun. Believe it or not if you haven't experienced this it's not always easy to clear your garment, draw a weapon with a positive grip from concealment while simultaneously trying to make a strong strike to create space.

    Personally, some of my most valuable close quarter and retention practice/training comes from inside my home. My materials (outside of my standard carry gear and snap caps) include a heavy bag, an old long sleeve shirt filled with some old clothes hung up on a hanger, and some gloves attached to the end of the sleeves.

    What can I do with these materials? I can realistically strike the heavy bag to simulate creating space between me and the attacker. This can be practiced by throwing palm heal strikes to the sternum, throw out an elbow into the upper torso/chin area, or snap out a front kick to the knees. I can hit the face with a palm heal strike and walk through/steam roll the heavy bag. I can also work on snapping out numerous strikes to the heavy bag that keeps swinging back at me simulating an assailant that desperately keeps trying to attack me after the inital strike.

    I can also hang the makeshift torso on the heavy bag. With the torso I can work on retention. I can work on retaining my firearm with the assailants hand on my firearm while holstered (one handed or multiple hands). I can work on the assailant having ahold on my arm while I fight to keep the firearm holstered. I can also work on retention from bear hugs (front/back w/arms down or free), chokes from the (front/rear/sides), headlocks and more.

    Good students are always looking for ways to improve their training and practice. We look for our weaknesses and try to shore up those weak links. I felt one of my weak areas was fighting with a firearm in close quarter situations and retention. As much as I love training and practicing this with live fire I still felt my training outside of classes was coming up short. As a result, while I felt like I had been working toward shoring up this weakness, I also believed I needed to create a plan and way to practice/train with real force that I would have to use against an aggressive attacker.

    Please don't get me wrong, I don't think this is THEE way to work on retention and close quarter fighting with a firearm at home. I just believe it is A way to help make my training and practice as realistic as possible and to work on techniques I have learned through classes and one-on-one sessions. I also believe it is A way to supplement my live fire training. Best of all, it's something anybody can do in their own home (as long as you have the space),at a minimal cost of a heavy bag (which you can find cheap on craigslist if finances are tight), and a little time to hang it up and stuff an old used shirt.

    I know close quarter and retention training/practice isn't enjoyable for many students or tops on their list of priorities. However, for those that do work on it, how do you train and practice? Have you used a heavy bag or torso before with your firearm training outside of a class? If so, how did you utilize the heavy bag and/or torso?


  2. #2
    Ex Member Array Ram Rod's Avatar
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    Most of your typical concealed carry folks will never want to be students of any sort. They got the card, did the class....etc.... Most not worried about higher education. Plain and simple truth. A case in point when it comes down to shall issue or pay as you go. I'm not pointing fingers, just telling the truth.
    DRM, AOK, tacman605 and 2 others like this.

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    Member Array WarMachine's Avatar
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    I workout and I have a bag I can punch/strike on. But I never tried the techniques you were talking about. You have gave me some new ideas for when I get my new carry gun.


    Sent from my iPad2 using Tapatalk

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    VIP Member Array Harryball's Avatar
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    My little brother and I do this a lot with our airsoft guns..You are right about clearing the cover garb. We have become much better at shooting from retention because of the on going training...
    AOK and tcox4freedom like this.
    Don"t let stupid be your skill set....

    Never be ashamed of a scar. It simply means, that you were stronger than whatever tried to hurt you......

  5. #5
    Member Array rick21's Avatar
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    BOB dummy from Century and airsoft. Eye protection always. My opinion, if I need to defend myself it will be at close range. While I practice at various distances I spend the majority of my practice time inside 10 feet.

    I like going to classes and try to go when possible. Over the years I've learned many things in classes but if I don't work them at home the things learned in class vanish

  6. #6
    Senior Member Array Luis50's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by AOK View Post
    Many people that go shooting for self defense purposes don't have the ability to practice or train shooting from retention or other close quarter techniques. Even if you do have an opportunity to shoot at the range from retention is that alone enough? Force-on-force classes, retention classes and the like are invaluable but how do you work on what you have learned outside of classes? Some of us are lucky enough to have a range that allows us to shoot from retention and move around, but can you REALISTICALLY snap a strike out to your target which is likely just a piece of paper with possibly a thin piece of plywood or cardboard backer? The reason I emphasize REALISTICALLY is because I'm guessing most students that have done some force-on-force training understand the type of force it can take to create space between you and a realistic attacker trying to hurt you or get your gun. Believe it or not if you haven't experienced this it's not always easy to clear your garment, draw a weapon with a positive grip from concealment while simultaneously trying to make a strong strike to create space.


    Personally, some of my most valuable close quarter and retention practice/training comes from inside my home. My materials (outside of my standard carry gear and snap caps) include a heavy bag, an old long sleeve shirt filled with some old clothes hung up on a hanger, and some gloves attached to the end of the sleeves.

    What can I do with these materials? I can realistically strike the heavy bag to simulate creating space between me and the attacker. This can be practiced by throwing palm heal strikes to the sternum, throw out an elbow into the upper torso/chin area, or snap out a front kick to the knees. I can hit the face with a palm heal strike and walk through/steam roll the heavy bag. I can also work on snapping out numerous strikes to the heavy bag that keeps swinging back at me simulating an assailant that desperately keeps trying to attack me after the inital strike.

    I can also hang the makeshift torso on the heavy bag. With the torso I can work on retention. I can work on retaining my firearm with the assailants hand on my firearm while holstered (one handed or multiple hands). I can work on the assailant having ahold on my arm while I fight to keep the firearm holstered. I can also work on retention from bear hugs (front/back w/arms down or free), chokes from the (front/rear/sides), headlocks and more.

    Good students are always looking for ways to improve their training and practice. We look for our weaknesses and try to shore up those weak links. I felt one of my weak areas was fighting with a firearm in close quarter situations and retention. As much as I love training and practicing this with live fire I still felt my training outside of classes was coming up short. As a result, while I felt like I had been working toward shoring up this weakness, I also believed I needed to create a plan and way to practice/train with real force that I would have to use against an aggressive attacker.

    Please don't get me wrong, I don't think this is THEE way to work on retention and close quarter fighting with a firearm at home. I just believe it is A way to help make my training and practice as realistic as possible and to work on techniques I have learned through classes and one-on-one sessions. I also believe it is A way to supplement my live fire training. Best of all, it's something anybody can do in their own home (as long as you have the space),at a minimal cost of a heavy bag (which you can find cheap on craigslist if finances are tight), and a little time to hang it up and stuff an old used shirt.

    I know close quarter and retention training/practice isn't enjoyable for many students or tops on their list of priorities. However, for those that do work on it, how do you train and practice? Have you used a heavy bag or torso before with your firearm training outside of a class? If so, how did you utilize the heavy bag and/or torso?
    Excellent post. Thanks for the ideas.
    Luis

    "Everybody's got a plan, 'til they get hit".

    Mike Tyson

  7. #7
    Member Array Eaglebeak's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ram Rod View Post
    Most of your typical concealed carry folks will never want to be students of any sort. They got the card, did the class....etc.... Most not worried about higher education. Plain and simple truth. A case in point when it comes down to shall issue or pay as you go. I'm not pointing fingers, just telling the truth.
    Sadly, you are absolutely correct that most CC people aren't interested in practicing for "real world" scenarios, and many of those who are have no place or opportunty to do so. More often, it becomes a trek to find the neatest gun, "best" caliber or coolest holster instead of becoming proficient in fast retrival and close-range point-shooting accuracy with whatever they've got.

    After an untold number of "drops" during military combat and two during LE years, I can guarantee that nothing seldom goes as planned, and most instantenous shooting events frequently come unexpected without warning, in relatively close confines with many obstructions, and at very close range that all require fast weapon deployment and instinctive point shooting from extremely awkward positions that simply can't be duplicated by routine practice at the local firing range.

    One valuable practice that most can do at the range is to become reasonably proficient at firing into a paper-plate size ring at 10 feet with their non-domanant hand. Whether one is right or left handed, there will always be a 50-50 chance that your only immediate cover will require firing with one hand or the other to keep from exposing your entire body to fire; and there's also the chance of taking a hit that incapacates one hand/arm or the other where one's life will instantly depend on being able to fire with reasonable close-range accuracy with the one that's still working.

  8. #8
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    Thumbs up

    Quote Originally Posted by Eaglebeak View Post

    One valuable practice that most can do at the range is to become reasonably proficient at firing into a paper-plate size ring at 10 feet with their non-domanant hand. Whether one is right or left handed, there will always be a 50-50 chance that your only immediate cover will require firing with one hand or the other to keep from exposing your entire body to fire; and there's also the chance of taking a hit that incapacates one hand/arm or the other where one's life will instantly depend on being able to fire with reasonable close-range accuracy with the one that's still working.
    Off handed work is great for practicing. Unfortunately, most people don't like to practice things that are hard or make them look bad. Not only should they be able to shoot with the off hand but also be able to be able to draw, make mag changes, and handle failures IMO.

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    Distinguished Member Array kelcarry's Avatar
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    Let me be a devils advocate Ram Rod and Eaglebeak. If most people do as you say, why do you necessarily think you are the only ones who are correct? Could it be that most people never, ever find themselves in any situation relating to your close quarter/retention scenarios. Could it be that if you spend more time on SA, including preplanning that eliminates many who, what, where, when possible bad scenarios, instead of close quarter/retention, you might be better of--after all if you never put yourself in a situation, you do not have to train for that situation. I am 70 and I know no one who has ever been in any kind of situation that even required a firearm and close quarter/retention situations. Hey, I am just saying that what you are discussing is all well and good but, IMO, does not mean it is a necessity by inferring that those who do not follow this training are inadequate CCers. I'd rather spend time avoiding problems than having to deal with problems. Personally, when I am target shooting, I am not doing it in a dream world of a 1 inch circle, I am doing it with the idea that it is not the inner circle that matters but the quick discharge and the body mass square that counts. I think this is a very good thread that I found interesting; I may be reading into it more than I should and if I have, I apologize.

  10. #10
    VIP Member Array Harryball's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kelcarry View Post
    Let me be a devils advocate Ram Rod and Eaglebeak. If most people do as you say, why do you necessarily think you are the only ones who are correct? Could it be that most people never, ever find themselves in any situation relating to your close quarter/retention scenarios. Could it be that if you spend more time on SA, including preplanning that eliminates many who, what, where, when possible bad scenarios, instead of close quarter/retention, you might be better of--after all if you never put yourself in a situation, you do not have to train for that situation. I am 70 and I know no one who has ever been in any kind of situation that even required a firearm and close quarter/retention situations. Hey, I am just saying that what you are discussing is all well and good but, IMO, does not mean it is a necessity by inferring that those who do not follow this training are inadequate CCers. I'd rather spend time avoiding problems than having to deal with problems. Personally, when I am target shooting, I am not doing it in a dream world of a 1 inch circle, I am doing it with the idea that it is not the inner circle that matters but the quick discharge and the body mass square that counts. I think this is a very good thread that I found interesting; I may be reading into it more than I should and if I have, I apologize.
    What they were saying is right on. Most CC will not seek any other form of training. I do not mean what the OP was talking about, I mean ANY OTHER form of training. They have the permit, and in there mind they are all good to go. To them, target shooting is training......
    Don"t let stupid be your skill set....

    Never be ashamed of a scar. It simply means, that you were stronger than whatever tried to hurt you......

  11. #11
    Senior Member Array Luis50's Avatar
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    I consider myself very lucky to be a member of a range that allows almost any type of training and I take full advantage of that freedom. Well worth the $120.00 a year fee.
    Luis

    "Everybody's got a plan, 'til they get hit".

    Mike Tyson

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    VIP Member Array xXxplosive's Avatar
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    "I can guarantee that nothing seldom goes as planned, and most instantenous shooting events frequently come unexpected without warning, in relatively close confines with many obstructions, and at very close range that all require fast weapon deployment and instinctive point shooting from extremely awkward positions that simply can't be duplicated by routine practice at the local firing range."

    Being there twice...........this is so important.

  13. #13
    Member Array Eaglebeak's Avatar
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    To help Kelcarry with a quickie example of my two shoots, neither one was a two-handed shot from "proper firing position".

    The first was while my partner and I had split up to do a routine check of a dilapidated abandoned old house where neighbors had reported kids playing around in. When I entered the back door into a tiny junk filled kitchen, I heard a little rustling sound from the next room. Just as I put my hand on my service revolver and said "police" (in case it was a kid or my partner), a large adult male stepped into the doorway of the adjoining room while raising a big revolver toward me. Startled, I instinctivley spun sideways to minimize my profile, pulled, and got off a one-handed point-shoot from my side that hit him just above the right eyebrow - which caused a reflex action firing of his .357 into the Zippo lighter in my pant's pocket (very nasty shrapnel wounds in leg and lower abdomen from hollow-point and Zippo fragments). If I had been a split second later in taking a sighted aim, his pistol would have raised to my center mass when it discharged instead of my upper leg.

    Second was during a domestic between a male and female loaded up on meth. After breaking up the male's knife attack on the female, he turned on my partner who began emptying his .357 at center mass witn no real effect; at the same time, I was jumped by the wounded female who knocked my service revolver out of my hand (sending it slidng across the room) and we both went down in a wrestling match. I managed to give her an elbow while we were balled up on the floor, pulled my Mustang .380 BUG from an ankle holster and got off a miraculous shot to his temple while my partner was frozen-up with an empty gun (I truly think God had a hand in that shot).

    I don't recommend anyone subjecting themselves to laughter at the firing range by practicing a close-range draw and point-shoot from an ankle holster while balled up on their back with knees under their chin - but that is most certianly one of those "real world" totally unplanned scenarios.

  14. #14
    Senior Member Array Luis50's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eaglebeak View Post
    To help Kelcarry with a quickie example of my two shoots, neither one was a two-handed shot from "proper firing position".

    The first was while my partner and I had split up to do a routine check of a dilapidated abandoned old house where neighbors had reported kids playing around in. When I entered the back door into a tiny junk filled kitchen, I heard a little rustling sound from the next room. Just as I put my hand on my service revolver and said "police" (in case it was a kid or my partner), a large adult male stepped into the doorway of the adjoining room while raising a big revolver toward me. Startled, I instinctivley spun sideways to minimize my profile, pulled, and got off a one-handed point-shoot from my side that hit him just above the right eyebrow - which caused a reflex action firing of his .357 into the Zippo lighter in my pant's pocket (very nasty shrapnel wounds in leg and lower abdomen from hollow-point and Zippo fragments). If I had been a split second later in taking a sighted aim, his pistol would have raised to my center mass when it discharged instead of my upper leg.

    Second was during a domestic between a male and female loaded up on meth. After breaking up the male's knife attack on the female, he turned on my partner who began emptying his .357 at center mass witn no real effect; at the same time, I was jumped by the wounded female who knocked my service revolver out of my hand (sending it slidng across the room) and we both went down in a wrestling match. I managed to give her an elbow while we were balled up on the floor, pulled my Mustang .380 BUG from an ankle holster and got off a miraculous shot to his temple while my partner was frozen-up with an empty gun (I truly think God had a hand in that shot).

    I don't recommend anyone subjecting themselves to laughter at the firing range by practicing a close-range draw and point-shoot from an ankle holster while balled up on their back with knees under their chin - but that is most certianly one of those "real world" totally unplanned scenarios.


    Thanks for sharing this sir. As for the bolded part of your post, I just may try something like this and could care less about who's laughing at me.
    Luis

    "Everybody's got a plan, 'til they get hit".

    Mike Tyson

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    Member Array rick21's Avatar
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    This why I place such a high value on air soft for close range practice. I understand that recoil is non exsistent with air soft but other than that any type of shot from any postiton can be practiced in realitive safety. A trip to the range is unnecessary, just go to the basement or garage.

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