need some help, shooting low, changed stance and this might help?

This is a discussion on need some help, shooting low, changed stance and this might help? within the Defensive Carry & Tactical Training forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; Really could use some help from those more experienced than I. I have a SW MP9 full size. I am in MA, had a trigger ...

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Thread: need some help, shooting low, changed stance and this might help?

  1. #1
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    need some help, shooting low, changed stance and this might help?

    Really could use some help from those more experienced than I.

    I have a SW MP9 full size. I am in MA, had a trigger job done.

    I shoot low by a foot at 25'. I am pretty sure I am getting a good sight picture, I have a sig mosquito that pretty accurate from 50'.

    gun is good, i have had 3 people shoot it very accurately, so it is me.

    I am new to this, maybe 500 rounds on the SW.

    Also, bad eyes, both near and far. I wear progressives.

    So today, after being very frustrated, I changed my stance a bit. Instead of shooting with my arms locked, I brought them in some , with my elbows bent. And the more I brought them in, the higher the shots went up. One thing I also noticed was that sight got better as I was able to use a different part of my glasses to see through. I was low by maybe a few inches. But can't be too close to my face of course.

    Would appreciate some advice on stance, arm position. I know there isn't one right or wrong. But need help. AFAIK, this gun does not have a smaller sight that would help this out. Thanks.

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    Member Array swood's Avatar
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    If you are shooting w/ your shoulders squared to the target, I would try turning so that your strong side is back and weak side is closer to the target. This gives you a straighter strong side arm, bent weak side arm, and the gun is a little closer to your face. It might be a nice compromise between the arms straight and arms bent versions of what you were doing.

    I'd recommend video taping yourself shooting. You can this watch this in slow motion and might see something else you are doing.

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    thanks. I am square to target. Can I turn so my left shoulder is forward, and still use my right eye to aim? (I bat left, throw right, so even though I am rt handed, I am left side dominant. Screwed me up when I was little learning to shoot as I put the rifle on my right shoulder then used my left eye to aim!)

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    I think if you shoot your .22 well, and others are shooting the M&P well, then I suspect you are hesitant and perhaps jittery from the recoil, and are having a hard time adapting.
    Have you shot other 9mm or larger auto's and if so, how have you done with those, and if so, how long ago has it been in relation to your eyesight troubles?, which may be an underlying factor as well, which is perhaps causing your stance to try to compensate for R. eye L. eye back and forth.

    Good luck,
    and you may need to seek out a qualified instructor who has experienced a similar situation such as yours.
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    I'm in a similar boat. I shoot left handed, but do almost everything else right handed (or both.) When shooting left handed, I stand w/ my left foot back and keep both eyes open. I am left eye dominate, but still keep them both open. I like this stance because I am looking down my arm more than I am looking between them. I also like that it gives you a smaller profile if you were caught in a self defense situation.

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    Quote Originally Posted by oneshot View Post
    I think if you shoot your .22 well, and others are shooting the M&P well, then I suspect you are hesitant and perhaps jittery from the recoil, and are having a hard time adapting.
    Good point. I may have misread that, as I took it as him having the same issue w/ both guns, even though others shot the Mosquito well.

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    Sounds to me you are pulling the muzzle of the gun down when you squeeze / jerk the trigger...........you must CONCENTRATE on the front sight only..... and..... PRESS the trigger with the first pad of you index finger, not the finger joint......PRESS the trigger back in a Straight Prressing Motion.....no jerking or squeezing.
    oneshot likes this.

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    people had said anticipating, but that is not the case. Also, I shot a sig 229 9mm, again, accurately, so maybe something up with this brand. Not sure about that, as hard for me to blame the product when it works for others.

    The stance did help, I will try that out. Just didn't know if arms should always be locked. I was also taught to use a cup under the grip, which these days is not the taught method. So as a novice, just looking for experience from others. Kind of wish there was a online class, or a way to find a reputable instructor...Big diff in those who can shoot well, and those who can teach to shoot well.

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    To OP, it sounds like you are anticipating the recoil of the gun. Try to relax and focus on a good grip, good sight alignment, and trigger control. Get an eye dropper out and squeeze one drop out. Remember the pressure, that is all the pressure needed for a trigger pull. PM me if you need any further help..
    Don"t let stupid be your skill set....

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    Quote Originally Posted by xXxplosive View Post
    Sounds to me you are pulling the muzzle of the gun down when you squeeze / jerk the trigger...........you must CONCENTRATE on the front sight only..... and..... PRESS the trigger with the first pad of you index finger, not the finger joint......PRESS the trigger back in a Straight Prressing Motion.....no jerking or squeezing.
    ok. you are saying front sight. I am trying to put white dot in middle of black, while aligning the tops of rear and front sight. Trying to get the 3 balls on the same plane. The issue I am having with glasses is trying to get both rear and front sights in focus, hard to find right spot in bottom of the lens to do that. I think that is what pulling the gun in closer is helping me with.

    Am I spending too much effort trying to get rear sights aligned with front sight?

    You are correct a bit about the pad, not the finger joint. It is a big reason I went to get the trigger job. The compliant trigger at 11 lbs is very hard to consistently pull with just the pad and not the joint. But with new trigger at 5.5 lbs, no problem, so am trying to break the old way of using the finger joint.

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    AAll above good points. Now, next time just aim higher.
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    JD
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    First thing's first, you need to determine your dominant eye, IF you are cross dominant, watch THIS video for some tips on stance etc. the canted feet, one bent arm etc. is called the Weaver stance, it has it'd advantages and disadvantages. From a self defense standpoint, it doesn't work as your body's reactionary processes work against achieving a Weaver stance and you don't have time to put one foot out, put one foot back, stick on arm out and shake it all about...

    You also want to make sure your current prescription in your glasses is still good.

    Now before you even start trying to apply some of these changes, YOU NEED TO SHOOT THE GUN FROM A RESTED POSITION, when I say rested, I don't mean that you just woke up from a nap, but from a pistol rest, sandbag rest, etc. while seated being a bench of sorts. This will help eliminate operator error and allow you to focus more on sight alignment, sight picture, and of course TRIGGER CONTROL. Worry about stance etc later. First we need to see if it's you or the gun. While seated you will also have more time to work on obtaining your good sight picture without holding a gun out in front of you while standing.

    After the bench testing, if it's YOU, we can work on that.

    As far as the following is concerned...

    The stance did help, I will try that out. Just didn't know if arms should always be locked. I was also taught to use a cup under the grip, which these days is not the taught method. So as a novice, just looking for experience from others. Kind of wish there was a online class, or a way to find a reputable instructor...Big diff in those who can shoot well, and those who can teach to shoot well.
    I've met plenty of good shooters that can't teach. A teacher that can't shoot will get your farther than a shooter that can't teach. That being said, you need to start somewhere. Start checking your local ranges for classes held there.

    I am trying to put white dot in middle of black, while aligning the tops of rear and front sight. Trying to get the 3 balls on the same plane. The issue I am having with glasses is trying to get both rear and front sights in focus, hard to find right spot in bottom of the lens to do that. I think that is what pulling the gun in closer is helping me with.

    Am I spending too much effort trying to get rear sights aligned with front sight?
    You can only focus on ONE thing at a time with your eyes. Forget the rear dots, black out the rear dots, heck you might even want to black out the front dot for now.

    The dots are for "hasty" sight alignment when PROPER sight alignment takes too long to obtain, this is for up close "combat" shooting. 25 yards is not up close combat shooting.

    You want to focus on the front sight blade keeping it centered in the rear sight notch, both vertically and horizontally. Once you you have that done, you need to apply your proper sight alignment to your target and get proper sight picture. Fuzzy rear sight, focus on front sight blade, fuzzy target. No you have to try and maintain proper sight picture while pulling the trigger.

    Now in terms of no BS straight up trying to make slow fire accurate shots, read this thread:

    Recoil Anticipation

    Quote Originally Posted by =Sweatnbullets View Post
    Shooter points in with hard focus on the front sight, with a perfect sight alignment and a perfect sight picture

    Shooter is told to begin applying a small amount of “straight to the rear” pressure on the trigger…..but don’t let the gun fire! Hard focus on the front sight and slightly more pressure……but don’t let the gun fire! A little more pressure……but don’t let the gun fire! Hard focus…..perfect sight picture…..a little more pressure……but don’t let the gun fire. A little more pressure ……but don’t let the gun fire BANG!

    Now that is the definitive surprise break!
    Apply the info from the above referenced thread with a seated bench rest position, and see what comes of it.

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    Have somebody watch you shoot.
    Are you flinching?
    How are you pulling the trigger, not squeezing?
    How is your breathing?


    probably something very simple, I am glad you figured out that you have a problem and are getting it fixed.

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    Quote Originally Posted by JD View Post
    First thing's first, you need to determine your dominant eye, IF you are cross dominant, watch THIS video for some tips on stance etc. the canted feet, one bent arm etc. is called the Weaver stance, it has it'd advantages and disadvantages. From a self defense standpoint, it doesn't work as your body's reactionary processes work against achieving a Weaver stance and you don't have time to put one foot out, put one foot back, stick on arm out and shake it all about...

    You also want to make sure your current prescription in your glasses is still good.

    Now before you even start trying to apply some of these changes, YOU NEED TO SHOOT THE GUN FROM A RESTED POSITION, when I say rested, I don't mean that you just woke up from a nap, but from a pistol rest, sandbag rest, etc. while seated being a bench of sorts. This will help eliminate operator error and allow you to focus more on sight alignment, sight picture, and of course TRIGGER CONTROL. Worry about stance etc later. First we need to see if it's you or the gun. While seated you will also have more time to work on obtaining your good sight picture without holding a gun out in front of you while standing.

    After the bench testing, if it's YOU, we can work on that.

    As far as the following is concerned...



    I've met plenty of good shooters that can't teach. A teacher that can't shoot will get your farther than a shooter that can't teach.



    You can only focus on ONE thing at a time with your eyes. Forget the rear dots, black out the rear dots, heck you might even want to black out the front dot for now.

    The dots are for "hasty" sight alignment when PROPER sight alignment takes too long to obtain, this is for up close "combat" shooting. 25 yards is not up close combat shooting.

    You want to focus on the front sight blade keeping it centered in the rear sight notch, both vertically and horizontally. Once you you have that done, you need to apply your proper sight alignment to your target and get proper sight picture. Fuzzy rear sight, focus on front sight blade, fuzzy target. No you have to try and maintain proper sight picture while pulling the trigger.

    Now in terms of no BS straight up trying to make slow fire accurate shots, read this thread:

    Recoil Anticipation



    Apply the info from the above referenced thread with a seated bench rest position, and see what comes of it.
    JD has NAILED everything that you need to do and in the proper sequence...
    1. Verify dominant eye
    2. Verify script is good for your glasses
    3. IF training for self defense, stance is the least of your worries. However, before you can train for self defense, you MUST have a good working knowledge of the fundamentals of acquiring your target, getting off your shot, and preparing for the next shot.
    4. Bench test the weapon to insure it's reliability. Both yourself AND a different competent shooter should test the weapon. Upon verifying accuracy of weapon, it's on to YOU.
    5. JD's description of sight focus, alignment, picture is SPOT ON...Read and reread what he typed.
    6. Work on trigger control, finger placement, NOT anticipating the shot, squeeze from front to back evenly, DO NOT slap at the trigger with your finger when repeating your shots or even on the first shot. You aren't trying to hurt the trigger, even tho you call it "squeezing" the trigger.
    7. I would recommend you get away from your "CUP" grip and consider the thumbs aligned grip. There are several videos on the grip, but this is a good one for you to watch: Proper Grip for Auto-Pistols - YouTube Also read the comments on this video.

    Good luck, Be Safe, TRAIN TRAIN TRAIN
    Sometimes in life you have to stand your ground. It's a hard lesson to learn and even most adults don't get it, but in the end only I can be responsible for my life. If faced with any type of adversity, only I can overcome it. Waiting for someone else to take responsibility is a long fruitless wait.

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    Some really good advice going on in this thread. One more thing to consider might be your grip. The M&P is designed to let you get your hand nice and high on the backstrap. We want to make sure we have a high grip on the gun so we can better manage and deal with recoil. Everyone is different, but in my case I found that once I took the steps to insure a good grip, my accuracy went way up.

    James Yeager has it down, but I'll throw in another short grip video just for the heck of it (my personal favorite). Travis Haley on Handgun Grip - YouTube

    Also, here's an interesting chart concerning trigger control. Take it with a grain of salt, but it's certainly worth a look at.

    correction_chart2.jpg
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    "Shoot low boys, they're riding Shetland ponies." -Lewis Grizzard

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